209. Why FMT Is a Game Changer for Your Dog’s Gut Health

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Welcome back pet parent.
Today we are talking more about

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gut health and obviously right
here on the Pet Parenting Reset,

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this is what we do.
We talk about gut health all the

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time because it is so important
for so many reasons and we're

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talking very specifically about
FMT today.

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If you're not familiar with
that, don't worry, hang in

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there.
We're going to we're going to

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break it all down.
I have been utilizing FMT with

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my dog and with my clients dogs
for quite a while now.

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I love it.
I don't, I feel like I use it a

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little bit differently than a
lot of other people do, but we

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can get into all of that.
We can talk about all of that.

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I actually before I introduce my
guest who is very patiently

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waiting and I appreciate that.
If we if you remember not too

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long ago, I had Billy Hookman
back on the podcast and we were

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talking about utilizing FMT in
combination with the new Green

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Juju probiotics.
So keep that in the back of your

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mind as we talk through today's
episode.

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But again, thank you so much for
waiting, Jason.

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I have Jason Klopp with Legacy
Biome joining us today.

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Thank you so much for being
here.

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Jason, how are you doing?
Happy to join in and I'm excited

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to hear more as well from you as
far as how you're using it.

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And who knows, maybe I'll be the
devil's advocate and critique.

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Yeah, I know.
I feel like you know everybody

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when you practice, when you are,
you know, working one-on-one

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with pets, you just find
different things work

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differently for different
animals, for different

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situations, for different.
And so I think everybody kind of

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tweaks things just a little bit
and we find ways that we think

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work for us.
But I, I am here to learn from

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you because you have been
studying, working in FMT for

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quite wait a while now.
And so I want to hear from you.

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We're going to talk more about
legacy specifically later on,

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but can you just start out by
explaining what FMT is, what

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we're talking about here?
Yeah.

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And I think to that earlier
point, like that's the advantage

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of working with someone like
yourself who has the experience,

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who can be more objective,
right?

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Like we need to create rough
guidance, rough protocols, but

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ultimately each pet, just like
each pet parent is very

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individual, right?
How they got to be sick and

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unwell to begin with is very
different.

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And so their path to recovery is
going to be very different.

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Now there's some foundational
pieces that you just have to get

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right for all pets, like you got
to get their diet right.

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But outside of that, I mean,
there's just so much individual

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role that that is played in
recovering a dog from whatever

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issues they're dealing with.
And so that having an individual

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guidance is, is really key and
helpful.

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So I'm a huge advocate of
working with pet health coaches

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and functional or integrative,
however you want to term them

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veterinarians.
And so quickly though to

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introduce how I got to this pet
world space.

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Actually, my backgrounds as a
naturopathic Dr. And so I first

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began treating humans with FMT
back starting in 2018 and spent

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many years treating hundreds of
patients with a whole variety of

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different conditions.
And so a lot of what I refer to

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is based on my experience in
treating humans because that's

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where the bulk of the research
is when it comes to the gut

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microbiome.
There is starting to be more

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research developing in dogs and
cats when it comes to the

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microbiome testing, FMT
treatment.

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And we're actually going to be
in, in the next short while

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launching our own small study
with the FMTS and intervention.

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So what is FMT?
So it stands for fecal

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microbiota transplant.
So it really sounds like it is.

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Oftentimes though, people hear
the word transplant and they

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start to think, wait a minute,
there's going to be like a

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surgery just like a liver
transplant or a kidney

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transplant.
There is no surgery.

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The predominant method of
delivery is actually via

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capsules.
The product looks very similar

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to a probiotic.
So there's no, you know, dealing

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with poop or smells or odors or
any other issues like that.

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It's a very clean product and
we're concentrating for the

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microbiome in the actual product
itself.

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The the product comes as a
double encapsulated, so it's

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enteric coded, which means that
it can get through the stomach

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acid and being mostly intact by
the time it hits the small

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intestine where it will slowly
begin to open.

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And the premise of FMT or fecal
microbiotic transplant is that

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we're trying to identify very
healthy, carefully screened

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donor dogs and cats who have
been raised naturally over many

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generations to ensure that they
had the healthiest microbiome

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possible because the microbiome
is critical for, well, basically

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everything.
I mean, the gut microbiome is

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tied to all organ systems.
Most people are aware of the gut

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brain connection, but the
reality is, is we have a gut,

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every other organ system
connection, gut, brain, gut,

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heart, gut, lung, gut, skin,
gut, you name it, they're all

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connected.
And so it is this really

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foundational piece where if it's
off, if the gut microbiome is

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imbalanced, it will have a
negative feedback loop to

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whatever organ system it's
interacting with, whether it's

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the immune system or the brain.
And so by improving gut function

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and gut health overall via in
this context of fecal

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transplant, you can start to see
really important and

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transformative changes in
whatever organ system is

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impacted.
Yeah, it really does impact

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everything in the body.
And I think that's why we talk

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about gut health so much.
Not just, I mean any and

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everything going on in the body
because most of the immune

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system is in the gut, right?
So we're, we're impacting every,

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just like you said, we're
impacting everything.

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But also I, I like to use it
behaviorally as well.

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You talked about the gut brain
access and I, I think we

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overlook that even more than all
of the other things because the

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other things make sense.
I think to people, there's still

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a lot of people who especially
with their dog, Well, I don't

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know.
I think with people too, like we

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just really overlook the impact
of our gut health on our mental

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health, on our emotional health.
Definitely a huge, huge has a

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huge impact.
And you know, we're really

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quick, especially with dogs to
think, oh, my dog needs to be

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trained.
And I'm a big advocate for

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positive reinforcement training.
But I, this is kind of how I got

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into this space to begin with.
I was a positive reinforcement

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dog trainer and I started
switching my clients to fresh

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food diets and put myself out of
a job.

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And I'm like, I see, I see
what's happening here, right?

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Like I'm thrilled to be putting
myself out of a job because that

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means that these pets are
feeling better.

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So now they're acting better,
they're behaving better.

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They're actually able to pay
attention and focus and listen

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to what you're saying to them
and, and try to do the things

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you're asking of them because
they want to do.

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Like, you know, our dogs are
really different in that way in

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that we have put them in an
environment that is not at all

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natural to them.
We have asked them to behave in

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a totally different manner than
what is natural to them and

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given them like no structure and
guidelines to do so.

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And yet they still want to do
it.

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They still want, right?
It's pretty shocking, isn't it?

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And I mean, that's the reality,
right?

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I mean, if anybody has, you
know, been around has a toddler,

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like if they can't communicate,
but they're feeling anxious or

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they're feeling some sort of
pain, they're going to act out

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in behaviors.
And so it's not very on, you

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know, dogs can't talk,
unfortunately, although maybe

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fortunately, I don't know, I
wondered, you know, like what's

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going on in their noggin.
I'd love to know what's going on

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in there.
But maybe one day with AI and

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all these, you know, brain
implants and things, we'll be

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able to, you know, get to
understand what dogs are

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actually thinking.
The reality is it's probably not

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a lot, but but, but yeah, I
mean, that's their way of

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communicating, right?
So if they're in pain and you

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can't see it expressed as a
symptom, they're going to react

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as a behavior, right?
So it's going to come out some

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way.
That's just the body's natural

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way of communicating what's
going on in the absence of being

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able to actually verbalize
something.

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And so it's really important to
look for these cues that aren't

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necessarily just physical
symptoms.

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In some of these contexts, it
can be behaviors.

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So I'm, I'm really curious, you
know, being a naturopathic Dr.

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that's something I think most
people are not super familiar

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with.
It's not something most people

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either have access to or know
realize that they have access to

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because you do practice very
differently from a traditional

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western allopathic medicine
doctor.

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One of the things, and this this
comes up a lot in for me when

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I'm talking to clients is trying
to get them over that really

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huge hurdle of thinking in
allopathic medicine and mindset.

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So FMT I think really falls into
that like naturopathic

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functional holistic medicine
mindset where we are not just

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just as an example, I was
talking to a potential client

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the other day and I was
explaining to her that because

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she was talking about her cat
having an excessive amount of a

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certain bacteria in, in her gut
microbiome.

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And then I was explaining to her
that that's really great

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information.
That's really great data, but

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because she was talking about,
you know, metronidazole being

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really great at killing off this
particular bacteria.

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And I'm like, that's wonderful.
But I find that when we stop

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focusing on trying to kill or
eradicate something and we start

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focusing on how to create a more
like a harmonial balance.

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And we're not trying to say I
don't want this bacteria.

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We do want this bacteria.
We just want to adjust the

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levels like that's a really huge
shift in thinking and I think

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that's where like FMT really
comes into play.

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Maybe you can explain that a
little bit better than I can

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though.
Yeah, I mean, I'm totally with

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you.
I mean, again, a lot of context

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for what I'm sharing comes from
my experience in treating

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humans.
But it is really a philosophy

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shift that is required, right?
Like thinking the, the, the sort

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of conventional way of thinking
is, is that like you can kill

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your way to health.
But if anything is displayed in

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the amount of disease that we're
seeing in the spike in diseases,

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chronic diseases, both in humans
and in our pets, that path is

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not working.
You know, we can't kill our way

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to better health.
It's just doesn't work.

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And the reality is, is you know,
in the context of what your

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friends shared, like having an
elevated bacteria, like if you

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were to just to knock that down,
it's going to cause something

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else to go up.
And it's going to just be this

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constant game where the net net
you're going to end up with an

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even worse microbiome.
And having pathogenic or

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overgrown species of bacteria or
fungi, etcetera, is just an

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indicator that the microbiome is
out of balance.

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Like the whole point of the
human body and the pet body is

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to maintain balance.
That's what it's trying to do

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all the time, whether it's with
your blood pressure, your blood

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pH, everything is about
maintaining balance and

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homeostasis.
And so the more that you try to

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manipulate individual variables,
you're going to cause some other

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system to be impacted and
negatively affected.

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And so the goal needs to be to
try to give the microbiome and

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the body more generally what it
needs to do, what it's designed

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to do and has been doing for,
you know, thousands or millions

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of years, depending on your
worldview.

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And so it, it, it can work.
The reality is, is there are

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some cases where these
interventions are needed.

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So I'm not like anti using these
types of interventions.

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They can be a short term net
benefit.

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But then the question is, OK,
what can we do once we've done

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this intervention to get back to
rebuilding a healthy balanced

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system.
And in the context of FM TI mean

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that's what we're trying to do.
We're trying to give a

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representation of what is the
healthiest possible microbiome

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in a dog or cat that's been
living very healthy for many

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generations, doesn't have all
these typical chronic diseases

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and giving that as a transplant,
something that can go in and

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educate, if you will, the
microbiome.

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00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,680
OK, this is what healthy looks
like and start to create an

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engraft within the pets
microbiome and creating that

229
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,760
balance so that it can monitor
and prune as if you will itself.

230
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:36,400
Right.
Like forests.

231
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,400
We don't we don't go into
forests and like, oh, let's like

232
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cut out all these trees like the
forest is managing itself unless

233
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,320
there's been, you know, some
problematic invasive species or

234
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,040
some crazy thing like that.
But generally speaking, right,

235
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,360
like nature knows how to
maintain itself and that's what

236
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,200
we're trying to do within the
gut microbiome.

237
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,680
It will manage itself.
The trouble is this if you

238
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introduce some these
conventional, you know anti

239
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,960
therapies, whether it's
antibiotics or other things, it

240
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,920
will then create an imbalance
and potentially dis ease.

241
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,560
Yeah.
So with FMT and from, I just

242
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kind of want to circle back to
what you just said.

243
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You are introducing what the
microbiome should look like to

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00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,240
try to educate.
And then that's, I think that's

245
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:33,440
a may be easy for us, easier for
us to understand, but I'm trying

246
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,080
to figure out how, how we are
educating our body system.

247
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:43,360
We're we're just providing it
like this example of like if I'm

248
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,280
going to hand this to you, I'm
going to, I'm going to give this

249
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,760
to you to utilize, to absorb, to
do all the things to adjust the,

250
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,800
the bacteria that are currently
in in your gut so you can see

251
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,960
how this feels.
Yeah, in in part, I think that's

252
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,920
the a part of the way to think
about it.

253
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,720
You know, truthfully, we don't
know exactly how it works.

254
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,000
Even though it's like, you know,
hundreds and thousands of

255
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,280
studies in this, you know,
general space, it's still not

256
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,880
totally clear.
The the likely path is, is that

257
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,440
yes, we are putting in this
whole microbiome product that

258
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,640
includes bacteria, that includes
fungus and viruses and parasites

259
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,880
and a whole bunch of things that
in and like all combined make up

260
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,080
the microbiome.
And the whole concept of the

261
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,520
whole goal is to get these new
microbes to actually engraft and

262
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,240
become a part of your pet's new
microbiome.

263
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,360
And in studies again in humans,
but the donors microbiome and

264
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,880
then the recipient's microbiome
in this context, the pet,

265
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,920
they're very different after
FMT.

266
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,000
So the FMT that the new
microbiome from the pet won't

267
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,800
look like exactly like the
donors and it won't look exactly

268
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,040
like what they had before.
So they'll basically take on

269
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,120
what they need or what was
imbalanced and there'll be a new

270
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,400
microbiome.
And a lot of it will also depend

271
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,120
on, you know, their environment,
their lifestyle, their diet,

272
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,520
right?
So those factors will have an

273
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,960
impact on what types of bugs and
microbes actually in graft and

274
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,640
become a part of the microbiome.
And the advantage of dosing over

275
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,280
a somewhat longer period of
time, depending on the case, is

276
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,120
that it gives you the
opportunity to keep giving in

277
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,640
some sense that reminder like
here's what a healthy microbiome

278
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,520
looks like.
So it can continue to try to

279
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,960
emulate that.
And then over time it's formed,

280
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,520
it's there.
And as long as the diet and

281
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,040
lifestyle and all the other
things are good, that microbiome

282
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,080
can continue to be healthy.
Now, as you age naturally, the

283
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,400
microbiome does decline,
unfortunately.

284
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,520
And so there is the potential
advantage at at some Gen. you

285
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,160
know, points to actually do some
form of a booster along the way.

286
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,360
But broadly speaking, you know
that microbiome in graphs, it

287
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,120
becomes a part of their new gut.
And as long as it's being

288
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,080
supported, it's there to stay.
That that is very important.

289
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320
I'm going to talk about that a
little bit later about

290
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,120
supporting it.
What are when we think about

291
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:17,000
candidates for FMT therapies and
there are so today we're we're

292
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,560
specifically talking about, you
know, the capsules that that

293
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,760
legacy Biome has available.
But I know there's also, you

294
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,520
know, there are some
veterinarians out there that

295
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,160
will do.
Yes, thank you for I was trying

296
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,720
to think of a good way to like,
do I want to say this out loud?

297
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,960
Yes.
So they will do that in office

298
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,680
and that I understand can be
really, really effective.

299
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,640
So I mean there are that that's
not available to everybody

300
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,200
though, right.
Like that's just not something

301
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:44,960
we agree better.
Right.

302
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,000
And sell those to veterinarians
who want to do the procedure in

303
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,760
office.
Often times they're doing some

304
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,120
sort of procedure beforehand, in
many cases rectal ozone.

305
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,880
So they'll do that first and
then they'll follow it up with

306
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,040
the rectal enema.
And so, yeah, there there's an

307
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,560
opportunity to do that.
It's interesting though, because

308
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,160
many years ago, prior to where
we're at now when it comes to

309
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,400
FMT manufacturing, there were no
FMT capsules.

310
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,640
It just wasn't a thing yet.
That sort of started changing,

311
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,040
at least in humans, at around
2019.

312
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,040
And now more and more studies
are utilizing FMT capsules, and

313
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,480
they're comparing them from an
efficacy standpoint.

314
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,800
The real advantage is especially
for dogs, right?

315
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,840
Like trying to get a dog to
listen to you to hold it, like,

316
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,280
hold it in Fluffy, like, yeah,
good luck.

317
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,040
Right.
That's and so that's obviously a

318
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,800
concern.
Of course, you know, you could

319
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,240
put the dog in the crate and
hopefully they don't get urgency

320
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,480
or something and and hopefully
they'll hold it in for a few

321
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,120
hours.
But that can be a real

322
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:44,800
challenge.
But in humans, when they've

323
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,800
studied them for C diff, which
is a pretty serious GI infection

324
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,720
that results in diarrhea, and
dogs get the same thing, what

325
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,400
happens is, is that they
compared capsules to

326
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,000
colonoscopies to enemas.
And both capsules and

327
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,400
colonoscopies had about a 90%
cure rate for C diff.

328
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,240
Enemas, on the other hand, had
about a 60% cure rate for C

329
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,160
diff.
And so there's, it's showing

330
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,160
that it's important to try to
inoculate a bigger portion of

331
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,680
the GI tract, which the
colonoscopy does.

332
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,680
You know, it goes right up to
the end of the colon where where

333
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,640
the, you know, small intestine
transitions to the large and

334
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,680
then capsules will inoculate the
whole thing.

335
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,840
So I do think there's definitely
use cases for the enemas.

336
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,760
I know some vets really prefer
those.

337
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,280
But generally speaking, it is
something that, you know, there

338
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,000
are some pretty savvy pet
parents out there who will

339
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,880
probably do almost any
procedure.

340
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,600
But most cases, it's going to be
better done, you know, in a

341
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,880
veterinarian office in a more
controlled environment.

342
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,760
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, and that's good to know

343
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,440
about the capsules as well that
you know, they're they're going

344
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,600
to reach more places and and do
all things.

345
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,680
And I think the advantage as
well of the capsules is that you

346
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,560
can treat over a longer period
of time.

347
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,880
So instead of doing a single
enema procedure and then kind of

348
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,960
hoping for the best or having to
keep going in to bring your dog

349
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,320
in for say a weekly enema or
something that can get costly.

350
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,920
It's time consumed.
You know, there's all these

351
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,800
variables.
It can be just a whole lot

352
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,160
easier to just do the procedure
via oral capsules, comfort of

353
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,840
your own home, feed it with a
treat or anything else, and very

354
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,920
easy.
So not a stressful procedure as

355
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,560
well.
You know, some dogs or cats,

356
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,600
like they'd go through a lot of
stress having to get that done.

357
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,760
Yeah.
For sure what?

358
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:38,240
So what are some of the symptoms
that pets may be experiencing

359
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,960
that in your mind you're like,
OK, these are really great

360
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,360
candidates for FMT.
Yeah, but the most obvious ones

361
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,840
are, of course, diarrhea.
You know, that was the first use

362
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,560
case for FMT in humans dating
back like 4000 years ago.

363
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,200
So diarrhea, C diff, that's the
most obvious one.

364
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,560
But then even beyond that, you
know, any sort of skin issues,

365
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,000
whether it's itching skin or
hair loss, but those are great

366
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,880
ones.
Dogs with like repetitive ear

367
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,600
infections, it's a great.
Use case of course like

368
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,560
inflammatory bowel disease, you
know, which sort of like IBSIBD,

369
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,120
those types of cases would
respond really well to it.

370
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,640
I think allergies is another
great use case where FMT can

371
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,160
work really well because
allergies is typically like a

372
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,120
leaky gut type response.
I know more and more now in dogs

373
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,160
we're seeing the diagnosis of
like SIBO or small intestinal

374
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,720
bacterial overgrowth.
I think that's another great use

375
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,360
case.
And then as you pointed out,

376
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,920
some of the like, you know,
mental, emotional, behavioral

377
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,320
anxiety, IED type symptoms, I
think rebuilding the microbiome

378
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,600
can play a really positive
strong role.

379
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,320
But broadly speaking, again, in
humans, and a lot of this

380
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,480
translates, of course, to
animals, because animals get all

381
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,480
the similar diagnosis, right?
And in many cases you're on the

382
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,080
same drugs.
And so, you know, it's, it's

383
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,160
anything that's GI related,
right?

384
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,440
Like any symptom that is GI
related is something that FMT is

385
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,600
typically being studied or used
in.

386
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,720
And then a lot of neurological
stuff.

387
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,040
So whether it's, you know,
Parkinson's or dementia or

388
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,240
Alzheimer's or Ms. or octaves,
like all of these neurological

389
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,440
conditions and then as well
autoimmune, there's a huge tie

390
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,920
between autoimmunity and gut
function.

391
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,880
And so, yeah, there's a lot of
different use cases, but the

392
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,000
core ones in pets, I would say,
is just any dog with diarrhea.

393
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,280
Dogs don't typically deal with
as much Constipation as, say,

394
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,720
humans do.
But if there were a case of

395
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,240
Constipation, that would
definitely be indicated.

396
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,240
And then there's just this
categories, well, of people who

397
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,320
want to just generally support
their dog before they get sick.

398
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,640
So I think that's a huge
opportunity, just being more

399
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,480
proactive, right?
Don't wait until they develop a

400
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,920
disease.
Let's do this more proactively.

401
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,320
And, and then it can also be
combined in more of these

402
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,000
chronic diseases where dogs are
dealing with like liver diseases

403
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,760
and kidney diseases and cancers
and other things like that.

404
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,680
This can be really supportive as
well because the microbiome

405
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,520
plays a really important role in
that disease, but also in

406
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,120
supporting the treatment,
treatments that someone might be

407
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:09,760
doing to try to either eliminate
the the problem or just support

408
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,520
them as long as they can through
the disease life course.

409
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,200
Yeah, there's so many, so many
use cases are there?

410
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,480
Can you think of anything off
the top of your head where you'd

411
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,080
be like, no, I definitely
wouldn't even want to consider

412
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,920
FMT?
Yeah, I mean, generally

413
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,400
speaking, it's very safe.
It's generally very well

414
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,120
tolerated.
You know, in humans, for

415
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:34,080
example, they don't take a drink
pregnancy.

416
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,720
But we've had many parents give
it to their dog in the hope that

417
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,080
they'll support the dog's
microbiome and the puppy's

418
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,680
microbiome will be better.
I mean, naturally it'd be better

419
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,080
to do it before they conceive,
but there's really no reason you

420
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,000
couldn't do it during.
I would say if they, you know,

421
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,640
we're really fragile, right?
Like the dog is very ill and,

422
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,480
you know, just introducing
something at that point doesn't

423
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,400
make a lot of sense if they're
kind of slowly on their way out.

424
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,240
But yeah.
Or, or if they had like a, you

425
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,640
know, really serious infection
or something else, like if the

426
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,920
dog is really sick, there's no
point trying to introduce this.

427
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,440
But outside of that, there's
really no harm in trying it for

428
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,440
most cases and just seeing, not
all cases are of course, going

429
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,280
to see a response.
But but generally speaking,

430
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,200
there's not like an obvious, so
this is an obvious red flag.

431
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,440
You know, if their immune system
is really, you know, degraded

432
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,800
and they didn't have a lot of
immune activity, that might be a

433
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,120
reason to consider it.
But but many dogs aren't being

434
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,280
tested for that, right?
So it would be hard to say, oh,

435
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,160
my dog has like a really
impaired immune system.

436
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,120
And so I'm going to, you know,
avoid or I'm going to do a

437
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,240
certain treatment.
So that would would be something

438
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,000
to potentially consider.
But yeah.

439
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,680
Yeah.
So going back to this idea that,

440
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,400
you know, X is wrong, so we take
Y pill.

441
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,000
I think that in my experience, a
lot of people have treated

442
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,800
multiple things in this regard,
whether it's probiotics or I've

443
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,360
definitely seen people do it
with FMT capsules and they're

444
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,960
like, I'm not going to change
anything, but I'm going to give

445
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,960
this FMT to my dog.
And then after, you know,

446
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,440
they'll see a little bit of, you
know, good result pretty

447
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,600
immediately, you know, and then
they're like, oh, but then my

448
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,120
dog went right back.
So it didn't work.

449
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,440
Well, I think this is probably a
good point to go back to what

450
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,280
you were talking about earlier
with continuing support.

451
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,720
So how do you how do you like to
educate pet parents in that

452
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,120
regard?
These microbes are only as good

453
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,880
as the diet that they're
getting, right?

454
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,360
So different groups of bacteria,
their goal, their job is to

455
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,440
breakdown fibers because humans,
we don't have the ability to

456
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,040
breakdown fibers and get all the
benefits from them.

457
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,880
So that's what the microbes do.
They breakdown fibers, but not

458
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,360
all fibers feed all bacteria.
So you need a variety of

459
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:59,760
different fibers to fuel and
feed these different bacteria.

460
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,000
And then the great thing is
these bacteria then start to

461
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,520
release stuff, as an example,
short chain fatty acids.

462
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,960
So short chain fatty acids then
are the fuel source themselves

463
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,760
for the lining the cells that
line the gastrointestinal tract.

464
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,720
So butyrate as an example.
So butyrate would actually feed

465
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,840
the cells that line the
digestive tract and then help

466
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,720
that gut lining, which you know,
we think of leaky gut, begin to

467
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,760
recover and heal.
So they release

468
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,960
anti-inflammatory types of
compounds, allow for healing

469
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,840
within the gut, and if the gut
can heal, the leaky gut can

470
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,040
heal.
You're not having an

471
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,120
inflammation leaking everywhere,
which is causing and or

472
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,920
exacerbating most of these
diseases to begin with.

473
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,280
And so the diet is really a
critical piece, right?

474
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,920
Like we really need to make sure
that the dog is eating a clean,

475
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,920
healthy diet and it's as diverse
as possible.

476
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,040
You had mentioned that the green
juju I, I love what those guys

477
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,360
are doing over there.
Gus, he's got also has some

478
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,680
really cool formulas where
they're getting a lot of

479
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,680
diversity.
And so it's still fine to be

480
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,720
feeding.
You know, if your opinion is

481
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,520
like, I'm, I'm really believing
my dog needs to eat a more

482
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,040
carnivorous diet.
Well, it's not a big deal.

483
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,360
Just to broaden that a little
bit, right, Whether it's with

484
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,120
tripe or some of these toppers
which give more diversity, you

485
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,600
know they'll get 1015% of their
diet from more plant based

486
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,640
sources that can give the fibers
that those new microbes need to

487
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,920
grow and thrive and survive.
So if you do FMT and you

488
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,520
introduce all these healthy new
microbes and they begin to

489
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,360
engraft, but then you don't
change the dye and it doesn't

490
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,760
become more diverse and you're
still on a poor quality kibble

491
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,240
diet, Well, most likely they're
not getting the fibers that they

492
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,600
need to grow and thrive and
they'll just slowly die away and

493
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,920
a lot of the benefits that
you've seen initially will

494
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,920
diminish.
And so that's really where, you

495
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,920
know, we try to advocate as much
as possible to try to

496
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,240
incorporate more raw feeding and
as much as your sort of

497
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,680
philosophies vary, but
incorporating at least some

498
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,920
variety of fruits and veg
because that does give more

499
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,440
diversity of the fibers and then
that allows more of these

500
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,120
microbes to engraft, grow,
thrive, etcetera.

501
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,800
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, I feel like that

502
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800
is as important.
If not, I don't want to say more

503
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,440
important.
I mean, what if people have

504
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,920
gotten to the point where they
know even know what FMT is like?

505
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,760
You're doing pretty good.
Right.

506
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,640
I feel like I think a lot of
the, you know, a lot of the

507
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,720
people that work with, you know,
we'd have to do some sort of

508
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,280
pull or something.
But a lot of people that that,

509
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,040
you know, even come to this, as
you pointed out, have already

510
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,640
figured that part out right
there.

511
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,280
They're like, OK, the diet is
kind of a critical piece.

512
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,160
And so I would say the majority
are focusing on, you know,

513
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,320
better diet than the average
come this far and who are not

514
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,840
listening to this podcast.
But but even if they are right,

515
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280
and a small change can be
meaningful, right?

516
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,960
Like if if there are if it's a
cost consideration or some other

517
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,920
thing that's preventing you the
time or some other thing, even

518
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,040
making small steps in that
direction will have larger and

519
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,000
long term benefits.
So, yeah, you know, if if

520
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,960
switching to 100% raw diet today
is too much or, you know,

521
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,840
there's there's only individual
cases, right?

522
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,920
Like some dogs to don't eat the
food and there's all these

523
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,080
variables, but even doing a
little bit and, and pushing a

524
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,520
little bit outside of what
they're doing can have a

525
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,800
positive benefit.
And it might just mean on some

526
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,440
of these unique cases, they may
need to do more supplements and

527
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,000
maybe they need to repeat FMT
little more frequently than

528
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,320
someone who was able to really
manage the diet.

529
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,960
So there's a lot of factors
that.

530
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,240
Yeah.
So I'd like to talk, I mean

531
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,080
you've, you've mentioned a few
things that are specific to

532
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,000
legacy Biome, but I'd like to
talk a little bit more about

533
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,760
what really makes legacy
different from other FMT that

534
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,680
that may be out on the market
for pets specifically.

535
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,200
I know one of the things that
you you do, you're very, very

536
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,040
particular about the donor
animals.

537
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120
So can you talk to me a little
bit more about what you do there

538
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,440
with that protocol?
Is what you're looking for what

539
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,760
you're making sure isn't there
all the things?

540
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Sure.
Yeah.

541
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,280
I mean, to me it's the
combination of the donors and

542
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,440
the donor network and the
manufacturing that create a

543
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,880
product that is both safe and
efficacious.

544
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,600
Like we don't want a product
that's just safe but not

545
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,920
efficacious or efficacious but
not safe.

546
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,160
It has to be both.
And so from a manufacturing

547
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,880
standpoint, we've taken what
we've done in human drug

548
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,160
manufacturing and translated a
lot of it over to what we do

549
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,040
with the animal side of things.
And so we are very focused on

550
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,520
manufacturing that, you know,
really makes a product have a

551
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,120
lot of the microbes still
surviving, but also clean and

552
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,000
all the other things that go
into manufacturing the products.

553
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,640
So we know from a safety
standpoint, manufacturing side

554
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,000
is a checkbox.
But from a donor standpoint,

555
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,000
that also plays a role in the
safety because we need to make

556
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,720
sure we're testing the donors on
a frequent basis to ensure

557
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,840
there's nothing pathogenic there
that if transferred to a dog

558
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,880
that's more fragile, has a
weaker immune system, could make

559
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,840
them sick and cause a problem.
So donor screening is a big

560
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,240
thing.
But the gut microbiome as a

561
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:22,040
whole, it comes from, you know,
generationally, like we're

562
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,720
getting this microbiome through
the generation.

563
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,840
It's not just something where
you're like, Oh yeah, I got this

564
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,680
healthy puppy off of Kijiji are
some backyard breeder, but I

565
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,400
know nothing about where they
come from.

566
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Yeah, the puppy may be healthy
today, but they're probably not

567
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,120
dealing with the healthy gut
microbiome.

568
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,800
And so the gut microbiome does
come generationally.

569
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,720
And so that's something that I
think is important, but also how

570
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,120
the dog was was reared from a
puppy and then also the

571
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,800
generations before them.
So that looks like eating a raw

572
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,400
diet.
In our case, the dogs that we

573
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,800
use never had an antibiotic and
antibiotics, I mean, they're

574
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,080
like nuclear bombs to the gut
microbiome.

575
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,600
And it can take years to rebuild
from an antibiotic, even though

576
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,240
they can be life saving.
I know in some cases they're

577
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,400
truly amazing, but in a lot of
cases they're overused, You

578
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,080
know, the dog's living
environment, right?

579
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,080
Like what type of a living
environment are they in?

580
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,280
You know, sometimes people are
kind of like, I hope these dogs

581
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,800
aren't living in some kennels
somewhere and you're just going

582
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,760
in to collect poop.
No, actually they live a very

583
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,400
lovely life.
You know, a lot of exercise, a

584
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,680
lot of, you know, play and all
of the things that we know are

585
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,200
beneficial for dogs as they are
for humans.

586
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,160
And, and then a diet that is
really raw, clean, organic,

587
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,720
where they're not getting
exposure to chemicals and

588
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,640
pesticides and all of the things
that we know damage the gut

589
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,840
microbiome, flea and tick
medicines, avoiding all that

590
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,880
stuff.
So really looking at the dog

591
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,520
themselves, the dog's history
and their legacy, right?

592
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,960
That's where the name comes
from, this legacy of donors that

593
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,840
have had their microbiome
protected because it's, it's

594
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,680
hard.
I mean, it really is hard to

595
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440
protect the microbiome in a, in
an environment, in a world today

596
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,680
where it's so easy to get
exposure to chemicals and

597
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,880
pesticides and other things that
we know are damaging to the gut.

598
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,760
And it does take a lot of care
and attention to make sure that

599
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,200
that's protected.
And so the more interventions

600
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,280
that a pet has had, the more
likely they are to have had a

601
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:22,280
damaged gut microbiome.
Now even a really sick dog who

602
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,440
has C diff could benefit from
another dog who has a, you know,

603
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,440
moderately healthy microbiome.
But for more of these complex

604
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,840
cases, you know, where where the
typical stuff just not working,

605
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,920
we need a better, healthier
microbiome that represents, you

606
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,320
know, generations of protection.
So that's really what we're

607
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
after.
The the history of the donor is

608
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,360
a really critical piece and what
the donor is eating is a

609
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,000
critical piece to ensure we're
getting as much diversity in the

610
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,320
gut microbiome and that we're
transplanting then via these

611
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,480
capsules as much of it as
possible as well.

612
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,920
So I think I know this is a
really to me, I feel like it's a

613
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,680
pretty difficult question to
answer, especially in such a

614
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,880
short period of time.
When we say a healthy

615
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,960
microbiome, how do we measure
that?

616
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,920
How does legacy measure that?
Yeah, that, that is a really

617
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520
good question.
I think the reality is, and I

618
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,200
have friends in the gut health
testing industry and, and I love

619
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,240
to see what they're doing, but
the reality is, is like we don't

620
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,920
really know.
And so you can test the gut

621
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,800
microbiome and that is something
that we do do.

622
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,960
It's good.
Like I think testing and in a

623
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,360
lot of cases of the microbiome
is just information, right?

624
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,720
Just like the friend that had,
you know, some bug elevated and

625
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,320
they're deciding what to do.
It's information, but it's not

626
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,480
the be all end all.
We're just not there yet.

627
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,480
We don't even know all of the
bugs that exist within the

628
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,440
microbiome to begin with.
And so to try to assume that we

629
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,640
know what a healthy balance is,
it's just, you know, it's very

630
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,840
premature.
And so that's why I go back to,

631
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,120
OK, what are the things that we
know damage the gut microbiome

632
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,720
and what are the things that we
know support a healthy gut?

633
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,440
And knowing that, you know,
microbiomes are passed

634
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,800
generationally, the more we can
ensure that a dog generationally

635
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,760
has been avoiding all of these
things that we know damage the

636
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,520
gut microbiome means that
they're going to be at a better,

637
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,600
you know, have a better chance
of having this healthy gut

638
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,120
microbiome.
And, and we're transplanting

639
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,440
that.
So, yeah, microbiome testing is

640
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,480
complicated.
I think there's definitely use

641
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,639
cases for it where there's an
advantage to doing some testing.

642
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,560
But even even that, like, you
know, what matters more to you,

643
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,080
right?
What's on a result of a lab or

644
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,560
your pet showing an improvement
in their symptoms or their

645
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,639
behaviors or some other thing,
right?

646
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:42,199
And so it is, it is complicated.
The technology is improving, you

647
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,520
know, this whole emergence of AI
and being able to study all of

648
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,040
these things.
I think there's going to be a

649
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,760
future where we'll get a lot of
answers via the testing.

650
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,679
But where we're at today, I just
don't think that, you know,

651
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,440
gives us a ton of really useful
information.

652
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,440
And so, yeah, I'm on the fan.
Yeah.

653
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,880
Well, again, I know when I'm
trying to explain these things

654
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,480
to people, of course I'm trying
to do it as not a doctor, as

655
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,280
somebody who's just like person
to person.

656
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,640
Let's be real and talk about
this is basically like we can

657
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,200
look at all of the tests in the
world, but at the end of the

658
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,880
day, how does your dog feel,
right?

659
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,120
Like what are their symptoms,
right?

660
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,480
And a lot of money can go into
diagnostics, right?

661
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,960
Like you can spend thousands of
dollars on testing.

662
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,920
But but there's just some things
we know to be foundational and

663
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,240
we know to be true.
Like your dog needs to have a

664
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:39,800
healthy diet.
I mean, that's just not a

665
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,080
debatable fact.
And so I generally think like,

666
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,520
of course, there's, there's a,
there's a time where you need to

667
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,480
do testing.
I'm not disputing that.

668
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:51,720
And a lot of the conventional
labs can be awesome.

669
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,440
You got to understand what's
going on.

670
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,320
If your dog is ill, like you
don't want to miss some sort of

671
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,120
a disease because you're like,
I'm only going to focus on, on,

672
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,080
on treatment.
But in the average case, I think

673
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,880
you can go a long ways just
purely with doing some simple

674
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,800
interventions.
And so spending the money and

675
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,240
the effort and making these
simple interventions and simple

676
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:13,000
changes.
And then if you're still

677
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,920
struggling or still seeing
challenges, then choosing to

678
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,560
potentially do some testing to
guide you along the way.

679
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,560
But as the first thing to do,
you know, I would start with

680
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,880
interventions.
Yeah.

681
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:30,560
So you talked a little bit about
the the capsule itself.

682
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,040
Can you explain to me what's
different there, What people

683
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,120
need to know?
I mean, the, the, the product is

684
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,040
encapsulated, double
encapsulated.

685
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,880
So I mentioned that, right.
So the outer capsule

686
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,520
entericoated.
And so the, the advantage of

687
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,960
having it being entericoated and
double encapsulated is it's more

688
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,440
likely to get through the the
stomach and still be intact

689
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,400
because the whole goal of the
stomach acid is to both

690
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,040
breakdown proteins, but also
kill potential pathogens.

691
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,240
And any bacteria that come in
would be considered a potential

692
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,920
pathogen.
And so we want to try to protect

693
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,560
the microbes from the acidic
environment of the stomach to

694
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,960
try to make sure they get
through.

695
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,040
The other thing is the product
is freeze dried.

696
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,240
So that means it's shelf stable
at room temperature, long term

697
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:15,960
storage.
We just suggest keeping it in

698
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,560
the fridge, but but very stable
at shelf temperature.

699
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040
So there's no requirement for
like dry ice or fancy medical

700
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,840
freezers, rather things like
that.

701
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,800
And the advantage as well of a
freeze dried product is that

702
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,680
it's not metabolically active.
So it's not dying every day when

703
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,920
it's still in its live format.
So the product and the bacteria

704
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,840
in it wake up, if you will, when
they're exposed to moisture.

705
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,520
And so once they get open into
the small intestine, there's

706
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,680
moisture there and they perk up
and they become awake and they

707
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,680
go and do off.
They go off and do their thing.

708
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,880
And so it's actually a way of
like freezing in time the

709
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,880
microbiome and then waking it up
again at a later date when it's

710
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,520
then needed as opposed to
having, you know, a curve where

711
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,640
they're dying off much quicker
when they're say, just frozen.

712
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,160
So, you know, that makes
advantages from a shipping

713
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,600
standpoint, from a storage
standpoint, from a shelf life

714
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,040
standpoint.
So there's a lot of advantages

715
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,920
there.
And then from a manufacturing

716
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,400
standpoint, our goal is to
really concentrate for the

717
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,640
microbiome.
We're counting on you getting

718
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,200
fiber from the diet.
We're not trying to put all of

719
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,720
the fiber that would be in, you
know, the stool.

720
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,760
So we're screening and getting
rid of a lot of the fiber that

721
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,000
would come from a normal, you
know, stool sample so that we're

722
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,280
really concentrating for the
microbes and transplanting that

723
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,360
versus the fibers.
So it's really concentrating the

724
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,880
microbes from the stool into a
final product that is a capsule.

725
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,600
OK.
So I mean, that's a lot.

726
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,160
That's a lot.
But it's it's good.

727
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,800
It's good, I think people for
people to know what they're

728
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,520
getting and why it's done the
way it's done because you do.

729
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,160
Obviously at the end of the day,
I want people to get results

730
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,800
from the product that you're
selling them.

731
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,040
And again, going back to making
sure you're setting, you know, I

732
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,640
used to talk about this with
training a lot, setting your dog

733
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,920
up for success, but like we need
to be doing the same things for

734
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,200
their health and setting up the
microbiome for success and

735
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,200
utilizing FMT as part of that.
So because of that, I'm really,

736
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,400
really excited to be partnering
with Legacy Biome.

737
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,160
So you're going to hear more
about Legacy Biome on the

738
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,920
podcast for sure.
But that is because it is so

739
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,280
important, because God health is
so, so important.

740
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,480
And because this is what I do, I
want to keep talking to you

741
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,560
about it and making sure that
you understand as a pet parent,

742
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,280
as somebody who has dogs and
cats in their homes, like not

743
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,640
only why this is so important,
but what you can do.

744
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,000
You can be proactive, you can be
reactive, you can do all of the

745
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,440
things and utilize what's
available to you.

746
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,600
And I love that legacy Biome is
available direct to consumer.

747
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,120
You don't have to go through a
veterinarian to get it so.

748
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,080
Why I look forward to this and
you pointed something out.

749
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,400
I think we'll do a full circle
before, but like you had

750
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,040
mentioned that dogs, despite
them being outside of what would

751
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,280
have been a normal natural
environment for them, are so

752
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,960
inclined and eager to please us
and do the best that they

753
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,680
possibly can.
To a flaw I mean, yes, it's it's

754
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:24,920
really shocking that there's an
animal that exists that would

755
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,880
please you, you know, even
though a lot of cases pet

756
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,560
parents don't deserve the love
that their animal even gives

757
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,960
them.
But but I was reflecting on this

758
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,360
and it came through actually
another podcast interview that I

759
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,000
was on and someone was asking
me, you know, like, why are you

760
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,840
involved in this type of work
and everything?

761
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,720
But I really feel strongly, and
I've experienced this myself,

762
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:50,200
that pets are like a conduit to
our own health and well-being.

763
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,840
And you know, I think all pet
parents can relate to a dog

764
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,160
having such a profound impact on
them very positively.

765
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,800
But also there can be negative,
right?

766
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,600
Like if your dog isn't well, the
impact that it can have on you

767
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,720
emotionally and mentally and
even physically can be really

768
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,760
profound.
And so I think these dogs who do

769
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,040
so much to give us their love
and undivided attention and try

770
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,760
to please us at all costs, even
though sometimes they do very

771
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,880
dumb things along the way, you
know they deserve our best.

772
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,160
You know they deserve our best
when it comes to the food and

773
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,720
when it comes to the way that we
treat and care of them, care for

774
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:25,800
them.
And I think the more that we can

775
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:29,360
support them to be their best
and healthy, the more that it

776
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,760
will reflect on us in a very
positive way.

777
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,320
And so I think both kids and
pets, they, they really have

778
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,400
this way of improving our lives
and our worlds.

779
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,240
And, and I think by giving them
the best that we can and

780
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,360
supporting them in all the ways
that we can, we'll just make

781
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,080
everything and everyone better
and happier.

782
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,040
That's amazing.
Yes.

783
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520
And you're so right.
And I actually, I mean, that's

784
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,080
such a good place in the
podcast, but I have one more

785
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,480
question for you.
So we're just going to do it.

786
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,200
And so one of the one of the
other things that I have been

787
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,680
trying to really weave into the
podcast since the beginning of

788
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:12,120
2025 is incorporating a little
bit more about how pet parents

789
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,840
can also take this information
and utilize it for themselves to

790
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,760
be healthier.
And this, while you're obviously

791
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,040
not selling FMT for humans, one
of the things I know, studies

792
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,880
have shown that we share
microbiota with everyone in our

793
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,080
household, including our pets.
So as a naturopathic Dr. I think

794
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,240
maybe you could talk to this a
lot better than I could, for

795
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,120
sure.
If our pets are in such a state

796
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,800
of poor health where they are in
need of intervention, whether

797
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,480
that's FMT or anything else,
that we should also be looking

798
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,480
at ourselves.
And especially those people

799
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,960
that, you know, let their dogs,
you know, love on them and lick

800
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,160
them all over.
You know?

801
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,320
Yeah, I don't disagree.
I mean, microbes are moving all

802
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,160
the time.
I jokingly say, you know, be

803
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,240
careful who you're hugging and
shaking hands because there is

804
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:08,280
this movement of microbes all
the time.

805
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,800
But at the same time, it's go
out and hug and shake hands

806
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,720
because that's a big part of
improving our microbiomes.

807
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:18,560
When I give talks at, you know,
human conferences, I jokingly,

808
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,880
but it's true.
I tell people go hug trees, you

809
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,120
know, like the microbiome that
we have comes from the Earth.

810
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,040
And so, you know, I'm a
environmentalist when it comes

811
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,840
to protecting the world, the
Earth's microbiome, because

812
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,840
that's our microbiome, right?
And we destroy the Earth's

813
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,520
microbiome, we will then
inherently destroy our own

814
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,000
microbiome.
And so we definitely need to,

815
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,560
you know, do more like the dogs
and like roll around in the dirt

816
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,280
and, you know, go run into the
ocean and go swimming lakes and

817
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,600
maybe chewing on on sticks is
probably, you know, but but

818
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,600
yeah, I mean, the Earth is our
microbiome.

819
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,640
And so we should go interact and
play with it and don't try to be

820
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,840
sterile because sterile is not
who we are.

821
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,080
I mean, we have more bacteria in
and on us than we do human

822
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,640
cells.
We're more bacteria than we're

823
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,240
human cells.
And so, you know, what's really

824
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,400
running the show here?
It's not the human cells.

825
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,560
It ain't the brain cells either.
Surely there's there's a lot of

826
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,360
control there, but a lot of it
does stem from the microbiome

827
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,360
and the interplay between all of
those things.

828
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,160
And so the same concepts of like
having the lifestyle, having the

829
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,360
diet, having more diversity in
the diet, right, getting good

830
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,520
sleep, getting exercise, all of
these things play a really

831
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,080
important role in our health as
humans.

832
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,080
And of course, the more that,
you know, humans learn about

833
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,400
what's important to them, they
then translate in many respects

834
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,600
to their pets.
And so we've seen that, you

835
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,720
know, like, it started with
probiotics for humans and the

836
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:46,640
people, like, wait a minute,
like, if this is good for a

837
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,520
human, why wouldn't just be good
for a dog?

838
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,400
And so a lot of the products
that were originally designed

839
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,280
for and went through clinical
trials for for humans eventually

840
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,040
then made their way down to
being used in our pets.

841
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,480
And so, yeah, I think that's
definitely an important thing.

842
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,960
We can't overlook the importance
of our human health.

843
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,760
How much, you know, the
microbiomes talk back and forth,

844
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,640
I don't know.
But definitely it's happening.

845
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,120
Yeah, I think this last little
segment here might be one of my

846
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,920
favorites all time the episode
because it is something that I

847
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,000
just have gotten so much more
passionate about over the last

848
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,280
handful of years because I'm one
of those I see this all the

849
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,480
time.
It's either something happens to

850
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,840
you or somebody in your family
and you start going down the

851
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:40,360
rabbit hole of learning about
like actual, real health and,

852
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,280
and not pharmaceuticals.
Like you're, you're starting to

853
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,480
learn about food and all of the
things.

854
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,120
And then over time, you look at
your dog and you're like, why am

855
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,440
I feeding you this crappy
kibble, right?

856
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,960
Like that happens.
But also I see a lot and this is

857
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,320
how it happened for me was that
I just was doing so much better

858
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,880
for my pets.
And then eventually one day I

859
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,320
was like, why am I not doing
this for myself, right.

860
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:11,040
And so for all of those people
out there that are, that were

861
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:16,240
where I was a handful of years
ago, I just know how

862
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:19,520
overwhelming that can be, how
overwhelming that can feel and

863
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,200
that you can absolutely can make
huge, huge changes in your life

864
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,320
and your pets lives.
We have so much, so much more

865
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,480
control than we think we do.
So I appreciate that.

866
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,520
I appreciate that and I.
Appreciate you, Jason and legacy

867
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,520
Biome.
Again, we're going to be talking

868
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:40,960
a lot more about FMT and legacy
Biome because I'm just such such

869
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:47,600
a huge fan and I as my cat is,
is walking across my computer.

870
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:49,960
What's a good segue?
Because we'll have to.

871
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,760
At some point, talk more about
cats and yeah, it seems to be

872
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,760
launching a cat FMT product.
I'm so excited for that.

873
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,080
Because that was actually, I
will say most of my this is just

874
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,640
what the universe, the universe
sends you things, right?

875
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,280
Like you don't ask for it.
The universe is just like, here

876
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,640
you go.
And the majority of my dog

877
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,480
clients are SIBO cases.
And it's, I think it's because

878
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,600
of the podcasts that I have put
out in the past, most of my cat,

879
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,040
but I also, there are so many
cats that are quote UN quote

880
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,320
diagnosed with IBD.
We all know that's not a real

881
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,720
diagnosis, but that's what they
get diagnosed with.

882
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,600
And there are just so many cats
out there with IBD.

883
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,520
And I think that's the majority
of the cat cases I get are also

884
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,520
their IBD.
So I feel like this is what the

885
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,720
universe is like.
Here you go gut health.

886
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,120
This is this is this is all
you're doing.

887
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,040
You talked about it.
I'm.

888
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,040
Showing up to deliver, yes.
So I'm really excited.

889
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,880
For to be talked to be talking
to you more about legacy Biome

890
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,240
not just today but also in the
future.

891
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:54,360
Great.
Well, thank you for the

892
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,680
opportunity and I look.
Forward to it.

893
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:57,840
Awesome, Jason.
Thank you.

894
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,280
So much for being here guys.
Well, First off, anything else

895
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,960
you would like to say?
It's like I always like to give

896
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,080
you the, you know, last word if
not possible.

897
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,840
No, no, not specifically.
I mean, if you listen to this,

898
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,560
you know, go give your dog some
love, your cat, you know, a

899
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,480
belly scratch if they'll accept
it and, you know, keep being

900
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,880
awesome.
Yeah, Yeah, all the.

901
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,520
All the links will be in the
show notes.

902
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,360
Check it all out there, follow
Legacy by them on socials and

903
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,240
I'll have a link if you are
interested in purchasing for

904
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,280
your pet as well.
So with that, like Jason said,

905
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,040
give your pet some extra love
from both of us today and I will

906
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,480
talk to you next week.
Awesome.

907
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:40,280
See your app.