214. Fear-Free, Force-Free Dog Training | Build Confidence, Not Compliance

0:01 Welcome back, pet parent. I am excited for today's episode. I don't bring dog training and dog behavior to you guys very often because I am so very particular about who I bring on in talking about these topics. Isabel and I talk about it fairly regularly on the weekly pet roundup, but that's just us talking. But actually, like bringing experts on is something that I have been so hesitant about. I know I've talked to you about this in the past where like, I'm just really, really hesitant about this because I want to make sure that I'm bringing people to you that I actually like believe in their message and what they're teaching. So today's guest is one of those rare exceptions. Her name is Adea Washington.

0:44 She's known as the canines consultant. She is actually a canine trauma behavior expert and educator. She specializes in guardian based behavior work. And I got to talk to her a little bit like pre recording just to kind of make sure like we were on the same page. And so I'm really excited to talk to you. And first of all, welcome idea. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. I'm great. Yeah, well, you know, we actually right before recording this because I record and it takes a while for episodes to actually launch. But right before recording this, my friend Isabel and I did an episode of the Weekly Pet Roundup where we talked about a Texas A&M study. They actually looked at over 43,000 dogs in the Dog Aging project just in the United States and that 99% of them had some sort of behavioral issue.

1:44 I mean, that's. Insane but like. Really. We can feel that right? Yeah, some of that I do believe and I can't say that I am completely guilt free in this, but I try very hard to be. I think a lot of this is like so many of us are anthropomorphizing our animals at this point, and we definitely use them as like therapy animals when maybe they're not trained to be therapy. Yeah, yes. But there are also pretty severe behavior issues out there as well. So I'd just love to start off by learning a little bit about you and the history of what you do and how you got into this kind of specialty area.

2:30 Absolutely. I think like most of us, we wanted to help with the obedient dog. My story is obedient dog LED into a lot of helping rescues and shelters and that's where things for me became alarming, mishandling, over handling, misunderstanding. It also was very worrisome to see there wasn't many people or professionals that specialized in behavior, AKA behavior modification. When we looked at behavior modification or through that lens, it was more of I need to modify the behavior of your dog pulling or barking at other dogs or you know, growling. But it really wasn't centered around how did they get there? What part of the story or the story part of the story that we know are that we were a part of that led them to be in this position to where they feel unsafe and needs being a met. And so after many, many years in rescue, also running my own rescue for many years, only taking code red cases, getting that call that we're going to euthanize if you don't pick up. So that is what really made me pivot into helping guardians to truly understand what they're seeing, helping shelter professionals and rescue founders and volunteers understand what they're hearing, what they're witnessing and not always saying the dog bit they're aggressive. The question must be, why did the dog bite? And so I was given a dub, the title in my area, oh, she's the bite rehabilitation specialist.

3:58 Only go to her if the dog has bitten someone because I didn't write them off. It was that didn't matter if the bite was to a kid, a parent, another dog. There's always a reason. Jessica. So in a nutshell, so I don't ramble, I really fell into the trauma because I wanted to. It was, it was very interesting to me to see how they got here. And my first career was centered around human behavior. And I just kind of shifted that into dogs because our brains are very similar, you know? And so dogs, they're just, I've had one all my life. They're just my thing. But they do so much for me. And I feel I'd do so much for them. And I just wanted to really step outside of the norm of what we see every day. And I'm pretty sure you can understand this. There's dog trainers on every block. Yeah.

4:45 I wanted to be the one to help build a relationship or rebuild the relationship and get people to truly understand what they're witnessing and asking the why behind behavior and not the how we fix it. So yeah, that is just untapped with so much untapped potential in dogs and that's what really pushed me into the this area of expertise. Wow. Yeah, I mean, there's so much truth to that. You know, I talk about that all the time with health. Like what is the root cause? And absolutely behavior falls into that as well. I know, just on a personal note, like, you know, I'm, I've been trying to do my own work on myself, right?

5:26 And like trying to figure out like I can understand where these things came from and why I'm doing them. And it it is helpful to be able to see that and like make adjustments once you actually know. Unfortunately for a lot of dogs, but you know, rescue dogs, shelter dogs, we don't always know the why, but we can kind of piece together sometimes what that why could be Speaking of by cases, because we actually, interestingly enough, Isabel and I, before we did the Texas A&M study the week before, we only talked about fighting and dogs fighting.

6:10 And I think I'm I'm more the like health person and she's more the behavior person as far as like topics that we're interested in talking. So we were definitely on a what is Isabel want to talk about kick. But that's OK because you know exactly what you said. There is always a reason why a dog is biting. We talked a lot about the fact that we, we have put dogs into, we force them into our world and we expect them to behave in certain ways that align with how we and, and this can be vastly different because whereas one person allows their dog on the couch in the bed, the person living right next door might not, right? So this can be vastly different and we don't give them the tools to understand what it is that we actually want out of them. We're really quick to say no, but we don't actually model or show them the behavior we are looking for. And I think that comes through is it in very extreme ways when when dogs bite, which is a very natural thing for them to do it. Is and it's one of their three forms of communication. All they have is the bark, the body language, followed by the bike and most guardians or as most people know it, dog moms, dads, pet parents, owners.

7:28 I'm firm on guardian because guardian equals leadership. Leadership equals connection. And that's how we we create a more understanding, cohabitating, compromising situation. And you know, what I'm coming to find is that a lot of suppression is happening. And so you want to take away don't growl, don't curl your lip, don't bark, don't show your teeth. So all they have left is to communicate with you by nipping or air snapping or you know, and then, oh, they're aggressive. No dog is born or bred aggressive. Aggression is the last thing before they're going off the boat over the ledge. You they're about to bomb the city because you have not listened to everything before that or you told them to stop doing it.

8:15 And that is why I've even had to tell some families as a result of the situation, your key doesn't fit his or her locks, so I'll take them. And I've rehomed the dog. And that's probably one of the most challenging parts of my work is when you have a family come in this emotionally attached and you have to say, hey, look this high, Dr. Malinois cannot sit in a kennel for 12 hours because you have to work. And then you come home and give a 2 mailbox, walk, feed them and then back in the kennel or sit down. And then everything they do is a no or a stop. You're pushing them into suppression and then they are mouthy anyway.

8:58 And then they go to nip or they're nipping at the kids or, and then they're this is all they can give them. And that's OK. But your key doesn't fit their lock. And so I've gotten blowback. You want to take my dog, if that's how you want to look at it. I want to give your dog in a better life than what you can. That's OK. It's just not fitting for you. So I think for me, that's probably one of the most challenging parts that I have to say that some professionals are scared to say it. And I'm, I'm pretty much a disruptor and I get it. I'm a disruptor in my, my little neck of the woods because I, my priority is the canine. My first priority is the canine. The guardian is secondary to me when most people and most professionals, the guardian is first, the canine the secondary.

9:43 And so, yeah, but I'm, I'm right there with you. I just, I feel that if we can kind of watch and listen more and stop asking for so much less is more with words, we will yield a better result. And just figuring out how we can rewild our dogs, how can we meet their needs? You know, taking them to just an open patch of grass sometime instead of walking in a neighborhood will make a world of difference. And a dog with a behavior influence of something that's influencing the behavior. So what are some of the things that you almost always go into a home and adjust? For me, I must say, and this is unfortunate, dogs snapping at their owners, they can't handle them. I can't touch them.

10:26 I can't put a collar on. You know, they're biting at the leash once I get it on. You know, resource guarding is a big one. You know, not understanding, giving space. And if they growl doesn't mean you keep going forward to show your alpha you know and so. But my number one is dogs biting at some member of the family. Wow, wow. It's very stead. It is sad. It is. I mean, and I was thinking as you were talking about it, like it it, it's not as serious obviously because a dog biting a person is there can be legal ramifications.

11:07 For that right, Yes. But it, it reminded me a lot because I mean, with just with potty training, like there's so much suppression that goes on. We're telling them no, no, no, we're never showing them what's appropriate. And so I think that it's like this common thread through everything we're doing. With our dogs, yeah. That we're suppressing. Yeah, it's a wake up call is needed. The modern dog is different. You know, I'm used to the times that I had my German shepherds just outside, no fence, we walk with no leashes was hardly any vet visits, which just existed, you know, And so I, I feel like we are, so we are positioned now as what we call dog parents or dog owners to buy in. Like we buy into everything we see. You're supposed to get this.

12:03 You're supposed to get that. When I talk to people and say, Oh, no, we don't require that vaccine here. They're like, what? You don't require spaying and neutering either. What? You know, I'm like, no, we accept titers. We prefer for you not to get the vaccines. You know, they feed raw. We can feed them their lunch here. Yeah. You know, so it's we are just buying into so much fluff. Everything we see, we're like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. But I just feel I don't want to be that person, Jessica, that that reflects, oh, my dog is my child. I feel I have a leadership relationship with my canines who are like family, but I don't I don't I take the time to research things about them like I would mine or my children now adults or my grandchildren.

12:49 You know, I'm going to ask questions. I'm not going to just take it for what it's worth and what is perceived as. And I think that's where we really are getting lost. We look and we look at that cookie cutter model. Well, I went to YouTube and it said, do this, but have you looked at the dog in front of you and listen to what he or she needs? And I, I would say that's another thing that I see is, well, I tried this and did this and read that. I'm like, well, that doesn't, it doesn't slow with every dog. You have to really understand what you have. And it doesn't also go to the one that crossed the Rainbow Bridge. You can't train him like you train, you know, your other dog. And so I, I feel that a lot of, of unfortunately, what we're seeing as a business, you know, as my entire business model, not just the trauma part, is a lot of conflicted guardians. They're unknowingly and unwillingly inflicting trauma on their dogs.

13:48 And so we're trying to do our best to educate, even going to the extent of changing my entire business model that I've built in this area for almost 14 years to saying no more, enough is enough. We don't train dogs anymore. Wow. You know, it lost US 60% of our clients. We're filling it, but we will rebuild. But we are looking for the emotionally intelligent guardian. We're looking for the people that want to understand how to meet the needs in a world centered around crisis and dogs, because it's a crisis. It is. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, you've mentioned a couple of times and I know my listeners understand that I am very much a proponent for positive reinforcement training. There are definitely people, people that I know and respect in my world in like the healthy pet world, who I feel like have kind of, I'm going to use my quote fingers kind of fallen for this whole like balanced training thing that's come up in the past number of years.

14:50 I think for a lot of us, it's easy to look at, you know, fear and pain based training and and know that that's wrong, though. I definitely have had people, clients even who, you know, they they didn't know what they were getting into and then they, you know, they go and they've already paid and they're uncomfortable, but they're like, well, this is the professional. They know what they're doing and then they wind up really harming their dogs with prong collars and choke collars and electric collars and you know, alpha rolls and, and like they really harm their dog and they even they come away with it like physically in pain from the emotional pain that they just caused their animal. But they're like, this is what I paid for. So this is what I thought I was supposed to do. So like how you know, being an educator as well, like how are you out here trying to show people that this is you including balance training in my and I think this is harder for us to try to combat because they have a pretty good message like the word balance, right?

15:52 People are like, Oh well, it's the best of all worlds. Yes, yes, I have found balance training to be it is what it is, a cop out. Yeah. I feel it's a cop out. I feel that it was the professionals who want the quick fix who are not truly equipped or experienced or come to find that they have shortcomings and what they thought they could do, they can't. And so they're moving over to something with force, pain or fear. I tried the clicker, I tried the food. It didn't work. Now we use the E caller or now we use the prong caller. And so for me over the last five years that we want to speak to say statistically for my business, 40% of our business or more as retrains as we call it. And those are families that come from the board and train experience or the aversive method experience, including balance training.

16:41 And as you stated, it really hurts my heart when someone can say I didn't know, you know, and, and that's where you and I are just more, again, emotionally intelligent. We're looking at our dog and saying something is not right. I don't give a crap what he or she is saying, but something's not right. And I've had people say that I went one day to a class with an E collar and I left, you know, so I, I feel like what's happening with balance training is they are, they're, they are really, it's like they're tapping into people who are really emotionally tapped out or they've tried it all or they've tried nothing.

17:23 But we're living in a world that everyone needs to work. And I don't have time to train the dog. They have a really strong message. Their marketing is amazing, the perfect dog guarantee and people don't. They want the convenience training as I call it. They want the drive through. I drop dog off at window one and pay and I picked my order up at window 2, but never looking in between the windows. You're leaving your canine with a person you don't know, you don't know where they're going, you don't know what they've been doing. But as long as you get the dog in the remote and you're able to open and close that door like a garage, they're able to do everything you want them to do. I think that that's the problem we're facing.

18:07 But they're they are praying on people that are at their wit's end. They are also, you know, trying to really pick and choose my words here. The industry is also really taking advantage of people that need help and don't know how to do it. And you know where I am in Northern Virginia, it is heavily saturated. It is very few and far between. You find a so-called professional that doesn't use the E caller or that's not a balanced trainer or you don't really find the truthfully Lima. I don't even you know, the Lima method, which we used to use a lot or you really found positive only relationship based trainer some and it's unfortunate you know that that's a a time for a whole another topic.

18:56 But balance training is unbelievable to me. There's no such thing as balance when you're inflicting pain, force or fear, you. Either you're doing it or you're not. Yeah, yeah, I I agree. Like I said, I know, I know people who have fallen for it and even some people who are like, well, it works. It worked for me and it worked for my dog and I just, I don't know, at the end of the day, I've just like you said, seen so many dogs down the line where it's like they, they need so much more support because of things that were done to them. I even a number of years ago had a friend who sent her dog off to a board and train and actually just told somebody, no Saturday 2 days ago they were talking to me about a friend's dog and I was like no, they're like they're about to take their dog to this board and train and I'm like no, please tell them I don't care what they've done. I don't care where they paid.

19:53 Get their money back. Stop. Don't do it. Because exactly what you said, even the most well-intentioned dog trainer you are giving, you're giving your dog for me. It's like a member of your family. Over to somebody you don't know you have no idea what's going to be happening to your dog in this period of time that that they're there and I so I had a friend who had a dog who was rescued from a dog fighting situation and so she felt like she had to do this board and train because she didn't know what else to do right because these dogs you just don't know when you're getting a dog from a from a dog fighting operation and it got to the point where like she got the dog bit her and she knew she was like I I did this to him because. I trust you.

20:52 Exactly. And she had, she had to put him down because she was at that point, she was just so scared of him, you know what I mean? It was really. And it was like his third bite. So it's not like she could have. Yeah. Anyway, it was really, really sad. And it completely broke my heart because I was there. I was there. Like he tried to bite me too, but I was. Scared of people I. Knew enough. Yeah, I knew enough to like get him away from me and and I was making noise to distract him. Anyway. We were able to get him in a back bedroom, but it was she she told that was the first time she told me she was like, I know I did this to him because I sent him to a board and train and I didn't know that about him prior to this incident.

21:38 And I'm like, granted, that may not be everybody's experience, but I feel like anybody that has sent their dog away to a board and train the the the very minimum, you're gonna feel like at some point, what was the point? Why did I waste my money? Because this dog isn't trained. Because. You, as the person in charge, their guardian, didn't learn those techniques. To use with your dogs makes no sense. It just makes no sense and I feel like I didn't answer your question entirely before when you said what am I doing on my end to educate more. I do. We do our yearly event sometimes twice a year where we offer complimentary training. If they they give us, they turn in their prongs, they turn in their shot collars.

22:21 I mean as you just mentioned, I know people that will say I'm sending my dog here or clients will say my friend is sending their dogs here. I will say tell your friends who call us and we will train their dog for free. Wow. And you know the thing we they still don't call because you're looking for the convenience. I'll say, hey, Jessica, well, you're about to spend 4 grand for two weeks. 4 grand with us is five months of training. You're learning and growing through stages of life with your dog. And you're allowing that rescue some time to get to know you and you to know him. Wouldn't you prefer that we're training a real life scenario? Neutrality in public spaces, confidence building connection, your home outside our facility, meeting other dogs, the right dogs. They will some people will still choose a board and train and that is sad.

23:09 But we do our best to hold workshops. We, I have something called K9 conversations that I host as of now quarterly, but I would like to do it more frequently when I have more time to where guardians just come in. We called it like a A or NA for pet parents. We're all sitting in this big circle, you know what I mean? And it's no judgment. We ask all the questions, the things that they're unsure they may feel it silly to ask. You know, we have those ones that may have tried everything and there's no intention behind saying, hey, work with us. That's not the goal. We just want you to know you have a supportive group that can that we hear you. We see you were pretty much holding space for people.

23:50 They feel like they don't know what else to do before they get to that point. Like I want to euthanize, euthan the euthanasia stories. I, I have too many to tell. You know, some dogs were put down because they were just too busy, just too hyperactive, you know, and that's what deterred my vet career because I was not going to just put down healthy dogs to earn a euthanasia card. I just, and that's why I said, OK, I'll do behavior. You guys can have that. So I do my best like yourself to consult nutrition, proper nutrition, raw feeding, you know, like a small batch supplements from good companies, you know, just health aids to increase the lifespan. But yet we do our best and it and it's a shame that some people still would rather not take a beat and say, you know what, let me go actually just learn something because of the misconception they're mine.

24:41 It's just a dog and that it just, it breaks my heart. And that's what led me from so much hands on now stepping into a new chapter of my life and doing more education, you know, and I'm very confused. Like social media, I don't know how to do it, you know what I mean? I'm like, I started this podcast, you know, people are like, I'm so glad you're doing this and we've been told you. And I'm like, I get that, but I'm such a private person. But I have to be, I have to just start letting go and really being able to show people like what I do and it can work. And you're not alone and you can do this. And I just feel like today's dog parent needs support.

25:24 Before it was you needed training. Now I feel we are on the the realm or the era, as I call it, the Guardian era to where more people need support. You don't need the come, sit, watch down, stay, place break. You don't need that today. You need the connection because once you build that trust and respect, the dog will do whatever it is that you ask. They trust you, you know what I mean? And so that's, that's what I'm aiming for. So I know that when I talk, people are like, I didn't think the dog stuff was this deep. I'm like, it could be very, it'd be very deep because as you mentioned when you first started this conversation, we go into that emotional support animal thing.

26:07 And that is something that I was just on another show that we talked about and it's like it's overused and abused. You know, you have a dog that you brought in because you thought you can fix them based off your own flaws. And you, you want to be that fixer and you want something that is a little worse off than you. And then you end up making them emotional support for you and them and then they're taking on so much because they're feeding off of your regulation, your nervous system. And then they are just a mess. They can't regulate because they're Co regulating with you. And so always tell people to check yourself before you wreck your dog. Some dogs are not built for that. It's particularly those that have sustained trauma. And almost 95% of dogs have sustained some type of trauma.

26:50 Whether it be the groomer, the vet, the trainer before your friend Rover tacked on a leash outside you, screaming at them one time, seething your teeth, or just being in their face. That's trauma. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It really is. I want to talk a little bit more about the effects of nutrition on behavior, but before we get there I want to I'd really like to dig a little bit deeper into why fear and pain and force are so detrimental to our dogs. Yes. So, you know, if many of you don't know, we share something with the canine called the limbic system, you know, that's pretty much built off emotions, you know, and some people think that they don't have them, like dogs get post traumatic stress disorder just like we do, you know, So when you like you and I, if I was to go through a situation where fear, pain or force affected me, which is very easy for a human to go through, the same rules apply for a dog.

28:01 But we just have this misconception that goes back to it's a dog. They don't feel, they're not sad, they experience grief, they experience frustration. The only thing that's different between US and the dog is rest, rationalization. They don't rest. They cannot rationalize anything. You know, they learn fast, listen slow. They're just zero to 60 sometimes. But with us, we can rationalize, we can pick things apart. They can't. That's the one missing piece. But that limbic system, like they take pictures with everything. So you've heard that term. You're, you know, you're a trainer. It takes one time, it takes one time for a dog to be hit by that man. And now they're, they have a fear of men that that whole thing.

28:46 So people hear me, listeners hear me, they have emotions, they have emotions. And so when you inflict pain, force or fear, all you're doing is making them dig a hole for themselves, away from you, away from the situation, away from the training experience, away from domestication. Because at the end of the day, Jessica, these are captive domestic animals. We force them into our lifestyle. So I need people to understand that there needs to be a healthy compromise, like the man or woman you're with or whomever you're with. There's some things you weren't too fond of, but you compromised, you know, and there's things that you may say to your canine, don't bite that. Don't pee in here.

29:30 Don't poop on that, you know. But for me, they have to say, well, mom, please make sure you meet my needs. Let me go run, you know, don't just throw the ball. Let me go sniff for long periods of time, you know, where's their part? You know? So when we do nothing but suppress and suppression, most times comes from pain, force or fear. Because forceful is the way you talk. Don't do that. Stop it now. That's force. Force doesn't always have to be physical. Fear is how you look. Don't. You're pushing them into a corner. That's fear. The pain can come two ways, physically, mentally and emotionally. You putting hands smacking the nose if people don't understand how sensitive the snout is.

30:18 Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean it really. Is. Yeah, how sensitive the throat is, choking them by the collars, leash correcting, taking them by the scruff, forcing them down. That's very different than dog on dog behavior. They know when to release and let go. They know what to hurt and what not. You know, we just think that we just have to dominate, you know. So if people would take the game show host approach is that call it, you know, you watch a game show and even if your answer is wrong, oh Jessica, that was wrong, try again or you know what I mean? Or like, great job, you got it. So if people can take that approach, even if something was done that wasn't to your liking, not necessarily wrong, wasn't wrong.

31:01 They just don't know if they can take that approach and say, hey, buddy, let's make a better choice. I use that one a lot. We're going to make a better choice. Believe it or not, They can understand that. Like, you'll see all this social media craze, all these videos with dogs, all this pet comedy or whatever they're calling it where dogs, oh, I didn't know my dog can spell shoes or walk or car. I say CAR. They know because their brains are just like us. Now, I'm probably going to screw this word up like I always do, but I believe it's called the AG mandala. That is just that is pretty much the place where memory is stored for dogs. And so that one time matters. It goes through that limbic system to that AG mandala. Oh, you yelled at me.

31:48 I pissed myself, yelled at me so much. So now I put that in my memory bank and dogs are resilient. They do box and shelf things, but they never forget. That's why you hear that label or that that term. They're loyal to a fault. They'll go back and want to go back with the abuser again. Look at us, Stockholm syndrome. We go back to the abuser is very, very similar. And so you really have to check yourself before you wreck your dog. If you notice dad coming in, who's always pretty chill coming in from work and Fido's cooling over and his butt is wiggling And then we know mom has a stressful job. She's always coming in on edge. He goes and hides behind the couch.

32:30 Why doesn't he like me? Oh no, he's just regulating off what you're going to bring in. He's like, no, I'll wait. And so in a nutshell, pain, force, or fear does nothing but push your dog into a deeper hole of suppression and to the black hole equaling shutdown. And you probably hear it all the time. Oh, he's so good. He doesn't, he doesn't care or he's not scared of anything. He's perfect on a leash. He walks right at my heel. You force that. They gave up. Yeah. I don't know what else to do. Yeah, I don't know if I answered you. No, no, you're good. You're good. Well, and I thought of so many things as you were talking because again, going back to the so many people are just like, I don't want my dog to XYZ and I don't want my dog to do this.

33:21 I don't want my dog to do that. And that is that is really, really small thinking. I always answer that with, OK, what do you want them to do? Oh. My gosh. And they're like. Like they don't even know how to answer. That most of the time. They do not, right. But for me, that's where like, I want people to start thinking in a different way. What do you want your dog to be doing? Yes, we call that the do list here. So we're like, so you get a call. Hi, I would refer to you because we do get a lot of veterinary referrals and and things of that nature. So a lot of our our clients are not what you would think of mainstream, you know, look for you on Google or you know. Sorry, that's OK Had a picture fall down that's. OK, it happens.

34:02 OK, it's all right. But you know, so we you call us and hey, I have, you know, Blue here who I really want him to stop, Stop, stop jumping, stop pulling. And like you said, well, what can we help him to do better for you? You know, it's it's what would you like to see him do, you know? And then it goes back to we'll stop, we'll stop. But I think to me, my last episode that I just just just went live yesterday was called Confuse K9 Equals Chaos. And so I feel there's a lot of confliction and confusion for the dog. And so as you, you said, you want forward thinking better thinking a different way, a different path forward. You want people to think positive instead of negative. I would like to mitigate my challenges. But I do like that he does this, you know, or how can we improve upon this and always leading with negativity Because if you look, I get people that will say I cannot stand my dog. I hate, you know, excuse me, I don't know if this is a he's an asshole.

35:02 You know what I mean? Like I'm like, well, they don't just doesn't just happen. But when when they were that puppy that was cute and fluffy, they can get on the couch and they can jump and do what they want. And now they're 70 lbs. And they're doing the same thing that with a learned behavior, and now they're wrong. Yeah, yeah, that makes me think of all the Chihuahuas. Yeah. Yeah, all the Chihuahuas. Tell me about Chihuahuas. Oh. Gosh, OK, so absolutely, I prefer to work with working lines. If I had a choice, I wasn't doing the trauma. So I love the German Shepherds and the mouths, you know, I love the so they just drive me. I'm an active person. I'm very there's movement in my work. We don't just sit and watch each other and you know, things like that.

35:45 So, but when it comes to the Chihuahuas, I have trained many, I'll staff, coach, work with families. Many of them I think they are just very feisty and they have, there's a lot of enabling. And with them. And I'll pass them over to my other coaches. I think that the parents are the toughest part of that relationship or the guardians. And there's excuse after excuse. They are the ones, if they've come to me with trauma and there's something that has happened to that particular set. Dog was the aggressor in the situation. They're just very feisty and very spicy.

36:26 And I feel that the way that they become is based off of what they're allowed to do, you know, kind of really tread lightly, you know, it's but I feel it's not their fault. But for sure. I find difficulty in working with parents of smaller breeds, specifically Chihuahuas. Yeah, it is. It is a lot of small breeds, but it is like really the Chihuahuas. Are my gosh. When I met my late husband he had a Chihuahua and it's the only Chihuahua I've ever had personally and I got to the point where I referred to chihuahuas as mini pities. Like that?

37:11 Yeah. That's what I personally call them, yes, because if they were the size of a large breed dog they would be. A big problem. And they look in that mirror and they just think they're this huge lion. Yeah. You know, they're always starting stuff, you know, and then they can't finish it. Or they think they can. Yeah. And I do feel like they're suppressed in many ways, meaning they're so small and so manageable. They're picked up from something They're not left to problem solve. I do have one right now that, you know, I couldn't say no because it's a biter biting everyone.

37:51 And so some of my work is I will go and just sit in your house and watch. Yeah. But I act like I'm not here, you know, or I'll say give me access to cameras, you know, things like this for a certain period of time. And I study, I study what I'm seeing. So that's why I say people, I'll say I'm a lone wolf in my area in this work because I am really trying to understand from A-Z what's going on before I can give you a how we improve this. Some of my cases are not going to ever be where they want them to be. They're going to have to manage some of the dog, these dogs for the rest of their life because it's gotten so far. They've gotten so far gone, but we got gotten them to a place of safety, which is manageable and enjoyment in some areas.

38:37 But it will never be that relationship you thought it would be because you've tried AB and C before. Sorry, doing the right thing. But the Chihuahua case, it's hoarding. She's from a hoarding case. Yeah. And, and has three other siblings. And she, you know, from that situation, she thinks the world is hers. And I am floored when I see her go at these big dogs, like hanging off their face, you know? No, just shake her off, you know what I mean? But Can you imagine if that was a larger dog doing that same thing? So we give the Chihuahua so many passes, so many passes. Or we'll get the call.

39:21 The bite is happening with the Chihuahua. Just pick her up and just put her on the other side of the room. Oh well, my son will just kick her out the way or I'm just like. Oh goodness. You have to allow them to problem solve. And the sad part is, I don't know if you've noticed. I'm a big muzzle advocate. Yeah. I think the muzzle, every canine should have a relationship with one because if not, it will be forced upon your dog possibly at some point. And that's trauma. Yeah. So you want to make it a relationship. But they don't make them for the little guys. They make them look like ducks and you know, they try to make it look cute and I get that, but they don't fit properly.

40:02 They're not bite proof and they are the ones that are really doing the biting. They are. My gosh, they are. I know. So I can only have like one small breed every three months? Yeah. I can't do a lot of it. You're so right about just observing and like observing and I would think cameras would be better because then they have the opportunity to forget that you're. Watching. Because they, you know, people have a tendency to tell the story they want you to hear versus the truth because they don't want to look bad or they don't want to perceive being looked bad as being bad.

40:51 And when in reality, it's like, it's just the same thing, like going to the doctor. People don't want to talk about things because they're embarrassed. But it's like. You're not going to get good advice. Yeah, you're. Not you're not. And I feel in my many years I've learned to listen more and shut my mouth because they give you all the answers that you need particular questions and and being in the industry as long as I have and working with now thousands of dogs, I know the answer before I ask it based off what I'm looking at sometimes. And so I try to give the benefit of the doubt because even before coming in, we have a five step process. If we, you want a referral from another professional, you know, you have to put an application in. Do you have to set a phone call?

41:36 You have to come in for an observation appointment and we have to sit as a team to evaluate how we can help. Then you have to go through a particular connection type of training and it's, it's a whole thing. So it's not like, hey, pick a package online, sign up and see you on Monday. That's not what we're doing. And so we're very transparent and help helping people to understand a lot of what we ask you. Once we see the dog in person, well, that's so important to us. We know a lot of what we need to know and then our behavior form is so rigorous. So where I need to understand, is there a clean bill of health? Is there GI issues? Is your dog in pain? When's the last time you've had X-rays? People like, why don't you to X-ray? I'm like, I know you don't want to go to the radiation, you know, radiation part of things.

42:21 But me particularly having German shepherds, they get their hips X-ray once a year. You know, there's just Bree things that some breeds are predisposed to. And so with the little guys, I'm like, when's the last time you had the teeth checked? You know, they're very, very at risk for any type of dental disease, you know, because you can't really, because a lot of people don't clean their teeth. You got the, you know, the luxating Patella, you know, that floating knee, A lot of people don't look at that. And so I even ask people, how's your marriage? How's your relationship with your spouse? Is there a lot of fighting in the house? Are you stressed? People look at my questionnaire sometimes like wow, because all of this is influential.

43:02 I used to get a, yeah, I used to get a lot of push. That's where I got the most pushback, I think cuz I didn't, I didn't do training for very long. I got to the point where one, I was overwhelmed with it. Like I just, I'm too empathetic. I couldn't do it. But also I know my limitations and I'm not, I'm not out here doing the trauma case. I'm not doing like, but that was what I got the most pushback on was anytime when I it was, it was in my intake form too. I wanted to see your veterinary records. I wanted to know the last time your dog was at the vet. I wanted to see their blood work. I wanted to see everything that was going on with this animal. And they're like, most people are like, that makes no difference.

43:45 I'm hiring you to train my dog. And I'm like, that's a world of difference. I mean, if your dog has arthritis, I need to know that. Yes, yes, yes. You know, it's like, yeah, it's, it's it's just really, it's really unfortunate. But yeah, it goes back to learning about a lot of what we're going to see before they get there. And so as you mentioned, I call it the guilted guardian. They feel guilty because of what they haven't tried or what they have done. And they also have a fear of missing out. FOMO if you tell me something. Oh, so when did this start, Jessica? The famous phrase is he's never done it before. Yeah.

44:32 Like, so he just bit someone yesterday. Yeah, he just bit someone yesterday for no reason, you know, or the second in line is just a few weeks ago. And then that's, you know, I've been called bitchy and it's fine. I'm direct. I'm like Jessica, that's not true. Yeah. Yeah, it'll say no. What? I'm like, that's not true. Just fight it out of nowhere. Yeah, I'm like that's. Not true. Yeah. I'm like, maybe you missed that. Well, OK, there was one other incident then. I get that. Well, yeah, you're right. You know, there was. I didn't. I just really didn't think it wasn't as bad as this one. I said they never start this bad. Right. So I'm right there with you. They they do, they will either feel embarrassed or guilty. We are the safest space that you can be and I tell people you don't want me sitting on that stand to defend your dog from not being murdered because of your misconception, misunderstanding, or inflicting trauma unknowingly or unwillingly.

45:28 You don't want to get kicked out of your home because your HOA has a breed discrimination, but you happen to move in before they put that in place and now your dog has got off leash and went after another dog and now he's on a chopping block because of what you didn't do. Yeah. You know, And so it's it's the stigma, the stigma centered around just train my dog. What does that mean? Right. What do you mean? What do you, what do you mean train your dog? What do you need? What do you want? What do you want out of this? We have a case now of a family that's unhappy and it happens sometimes. You know, they're they're unhappy because you adopted this dog three days before you came to us.

46:10 You've never had a German shepherd before, tied to a tree four months old, found, you know, the skin and bones, emaciated, sat in a shelter for almost a year. Then you bring him home. You both work outside of the home. You live in a basement apartment that's a shoe box. He's super intelligent. We have you bring him to our full day program in addition to some private connection coaching that was very affordable in my opinion. And you ask the questions, we provide the support, but you're getting close to the end and you still haven't connected because he still doesn't know who he is and you're still finding out who he is and who you are with him and you want to keep moving. Well, we just had other expectations, like more training.

46:52 And I said, well, how would you have those expectations when we had no expectations here? Yeah, we were very clear. It was expectations of connecting and unraveling. He needed to unpack. And you're expecting too much from him. No, he can't meet your friend's dog. Not right now. You know what I mean? He's still unpacking. Now he's chasing light and shadow. Now we're getting to compulsion disorder, you know, because you're not doing anything with him. Yeah, oh, poor baby. You know, so it's oh, it makes me so sad. It's it's unlike you, I'm not in path and that's why I really had to come up for air. And I'm just trying to move on to educating more and really taking those very tough on the ground cases that need a lot of anchor work because that's why I stopped my rescue two years ago.

47:39 And I really step in for cases that people just will not hate. Like I have a puppy now, Bluey, just looking for a home. And I just couldn't let him get sold to a fight ring as a puppy. So I get the call, you know, and I'm like, OK, I'll take him. I'll find someone. And so he's he's amazing. But you know, it's people don't look at us sometimes and what we take on like we care. I'm in this because I care, turn my passion into a purpose and I do it because I love it and I care. But I think over the last five years, I'm drained. Yeah, yeah. I'm like so many, I just see so many hurt for no reason, so many traumatized for no reason. And we try as professionals to be their voice and create a path forward.

48:25 And people rather say I'll just stop coming to you and I'll go over to someone else who's just going to train my dog because they don't want to hear about themselves. Yeah, it is. It's so much. That's what I learned very, very quickly was that dog training is not about dog training and it's about people training. Yes, we push that every time. I'm like, no, we're here for you. You'll fall in line once you know what you're doing. Yeah. One of the other things I noticed and I'm I'm it's not 100%, but I did notice that it's, it's generally the husband. It's like, where are we doing this? Where are we spending money on this? The dog just needs to do XYZ.

49:07 Oh yeah, do you? Do you notice that too? Oh, yeah. I think you just, you need to have a panel of us on here for that because it it is definitely the husband. And I've had to tell a husband to get out before get out, you know, and they look at us to you're going to train my dog, you're a woman. I'm like, OK, wait, we're not going to do that. Yeah. You can either sit down and watch me work or you can get out, you know, but the husbands are that way. And that's why, you know, if you the canines consultant is about connecting with emotionally intelligent women and it's not gender based. If you feel you want to listen like an emotionally intelligent woman, then I welcome you. But if not, I'm not dealing with your chauvinistic, you know, comments are you're downplaying what I do or why I'm doing it. I just won't stand for it anymore. We already had to fight through that in this industry as being women in the industry.

49:59 And so to to just be taken seriously. This is the male dominated field, you know, or worse, we're too soft, female trainers are too soft, our tones are too soft. We care too much, and that's the problem. Well, you know, I heard something recently that when somebody's screaming at you to just talk softer and slower and like, you're going to learn a lot. You're going to learn a lot. Yes, if. You do that, I think, and I don't know, maybe that's not always the right thing to do, but like I could definitely see how how with some people that could work. Oh, hey, look, I've been in a lot of therapy. Let me tell you something.

50:42 It has helped me. I stay in it helps to ground me. But I believe that too. Like, I am not. I come from a family of yellers, you know, I'm from up Norton or just, you know, And so for me, I never wanted to have that in my life. I grew up around it. And so even in my marriage is if there was any disagreement, I'm the one that's like, OK, no problem. You need a minute? Yeah, sometimes it pisses him off more, though. Like that's like that's, that's a you problem. Yes, over here. Like don't send that over here. So oh, yeah. But I'm, I'm right there with you. Any conflict, you know, we have, we have to have conflict resolution and business. You're gonna you're not gonna make everybody happy. And I, I will go, I will go.

51:27 I will go to bat for my team, though. I have a very good team and I'm the one that will stand up for them and say, but always like this. No, Jessica, that's not what we discussed. She's doing her job. You're not doing yours. So because you're. Always what it is too, yes. 100% you want my guarantee? Anytime we don't make wins or hex wins or we don't have successes, it is not the professionals fault. Take this finger and point it back at yourself because you're not doing the work. Yeah, and we're big on accountability. Don't talk to me when you see me, talk to me in between. Send me things, check in. You know, training is every day, all day. It's not just about the 5 minutes of commands. Just keep doing the commands.

52:17 Yeah. You know, and, and they did, they have to do the work just by how they approach the dog, leading with consent, how you speak, how you move, what you do around them. They watch us all day, every day. Everything we do, they watch like you say, your kids, your kids are watching you and they're going to, they're going to, how do you want to say that? They're going to mimic what they see. And so your dog is your mirror. How you feel is what they project, you know? So yeah. Yeah. Well, before I let you go, I did want to touch on the role that nutrition plays in behavior.

52:59 I know this so well because it was, I started incorporating nutrition from the very beginning when I was training. And I, I always say I, I put myself out of a job and I was thrilled to put myself out of a job. Of course, I wasn't doing the trauma cases, but you know, just the, my dog isn't listening. I don't know how to handle my dog. I just want them to sit, stay, not jump up, blah. Blah blah. That's the kind of. Things I was doing, I incorporated nutrition from the very beginning and I'm, I was thrilled when after the second or third time I saw somebody, they're like, I think we're good. I'm like, good. I'm glad. Yeah, yeah, yes. Nutrition plays such an important role. I mean, we, we can even start.

53:44 But you know, you go up behavior to me, any type of behavior is not the enemy. It's an invitation. It's an invitation to really investigate. And so you want to be able to open your eyes and ears and not always your mouth, So what they're experiencing. And I feel like if you think about us as humans, when we don't feel good, we don't act well. When we don't feel well, we're not happy. We're not exploding with joy. Those endorphins aren't dancing around. So in dogs, yeah, that dopamine is suppressed. They're not excited. They don't want to really be touched. They're growling at you or they're jumping, or they're doing this because maybe I'm uncomfortable right now. Can you help me? And so that plays back to let's let's talk about nutrition. I always say, OK, what are we eating? That's part of our you know, what exactly are you eating? What brand?

54:31 How often are they a grazer, like a free you just a free feeder? Is it they finish? Are we or is it balanced? You know, some people will have this misconception. I just the kibble bag is balanced. No, it's not. You know what I mean? No, it's not. You know, people aren't understanding the intolerances now, Jessica, there's so many intolerances because of our way of living now we have to keep up with the demand of having so many citizens of our country to now when slaughter used to happen between three and four years of age, now it's happening between 6 and 12 months of a cow, you know, so and then or the chicken that they're pumping with 67 to 77 antibiotics, you know, just to get them to plump. And so when you think about things like that, all of that that they're grinding down goes into your dog. And so think about what it's doing to us. So when I eat something, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that made me feel horrible.

55:31 You know, under not understanding or misunderstanding that you probably know this, especially chicken is not good for most breeds. Now, most dogs can't tolerate chicken. And so that's one of the first things I ask. Is your dog eating any chicken products or, you know, fowl or anything like that? Maybe let's consider the the seafood. Make sure when you look at the labels, that's the first ingredient, you know, label reading, you know, all those different things like that. So I do a Wellness blueprint before I start with families to really understand what are we doing? How often table scraps if what if they are, what are they high value treats? Are we doing bacon, cheese spray cheese, you know, all of those different things. Are they on a probiotic because they need one like we do, You know, is your dog on a joint support?

56:15 Doesn't have to be anything from the store, but there you can do AB and C. You know, we just want to set them up for success internally because of how they feel inside. It comes out through the outside. I ask people to bring me a sample of their dogs poop. They're like what? I'm like, yeah, bring me the freshest sample that you can so I can see the consistency, how it smells. Your body talks to you through their stool. All of my dogs are raw fed. You know, I have one that's 155 lbs, one 25105 and a ��50 and I see puppies that poop a bigger pile of poo than my dogs because when they eat an unbalanced commercial diet, they retain about 40% of that. That's why your dog is going to the bathroom 3 or 4 times a day. A raw fat dog, mine in particular, I can say they go once a day, sometimes they'll go once every other day and it's a small amount, it turns to white dust and it has no smell. People are floored by that, you know. So I think that behavior when a nervous system or the system in general, specifically the GI tract, is not good. It comes out in the way that they are dogging. They don't want to walk long or they pace or they they chew. It increases anxiety when they don't feel well, they're very irritable.

57:32 They're snapping, they're growling. They don't want to be touched once they get in that comfortable position and then you call them, I just feel good for just a minute and now it's come here and they're like, no, I just need to land his position for just another minute. Now they're stubborn. Now they don't listen, you know, or you want to go in, maybe reach around to touch something or do a snout to tail. And maybe they growled at you. My dogs growl at me. That's a form of communication. And guess what I do? My bad. Not right now. It's not like it's like I don't feel like it right now, OK? Yeah. And then if that same spot hurts tomorrow, then we need to. We we had a problem. Yeah, we have a problem.

58:13 But another thing that people should get in tune with, I know it's more exterior, but they need to be doing those snout to tails. You should know your bot, the dog's body. You should know when a bump pops up or a lump or you should just know especially right now checking for ticks. I'm all over them all day like these ticks are so bad. So I think snout to tell needs to really be more front more on the front of the relationship too for handling and consent and husbandry. But yeah, I mean there are some. I have one right now. Big old pity. So sweet. And femur was broke as a puppy and I seen him and his gate is off and I'm like, because I'm finishing up my osteopathy degree. And so I'm like, this gate is really off. Do you have you noticed that what we just called it a wobble? I'm like, that's not a wobble.

58:57 I'm like, you really need to get in to see a specialist, not your vet. You need to get in to see an ortho specialist and get some X-rays. And you're wondering why he's going after other dogs on a leash or other dogs that come close because he's in pain and in their world. And we go back to true behavior in science. Any vulnerability, it puts them at risk for death or being kicked out of a pack. And so when you're vulnerable, we take you out. And so they don't want to show pain. So I'd rather bark you back, get away from me or go after you first. And so a lot of a lot of you know, and so that he just didn't feel good. So we come to find out, yeah, he needs surgery. The knees all crushed up, you know, and so it, it's things like that that they don't think, oh, it's just a hop or a wobble.

59:41 No, no, no. If you see your dog like that, people go and see about it. But stop going to your general vet too. It's OK to ask for a referral. It's OK to say, I would prefer someone that specializes in this. You know what I mean? That's why they're there. You know, some people like with us, they're, they don't want it, they're embarrassed to say or they're scared to ask. Advocate for your dog. Say, hey, I just came to you to tell you the problem. I'll give you your exam fee. I know how this goes. I need my referral. Yeah, I'm a big advocate. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think, I mean, first of all, I appreciate so much you being here in your time. I think you had a great conversation. That's probably a good place to leave us. Is.

1:00:24 Advocating for your dog? Yeah, Regardless if we're talking about choosing a trainer or a veterinarian or the food you're feeding, whatever it may be, advocate for your dog. Nobody else is going to do it but you. They're not. They're not that. That's all I ask. You know me as a guardian myself, you know you, you know, us as professionals. I think that's probably our biggest plight. We, we want people just to advocate, ask questions, be OK saying no. I don't like that. What is that going to do? What's the outcome? Is there someone else? Is there something else? It is OK. It's OK.

1:01:06 Yeah. He could save your dog in the end. Yeah. It could. It could, I mean, I mean, be advocating for our children too, but that's a whole other topic. Right. Yes. I want to thank you again idea for being here. Where can people find you? I know you you've talked about your podcast and where people find that. Absolutely. My podcast is Behavior Matters, and so you can find us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook at Behavior Matters. We're new, new kids on the block, but I would love for you guys to take a listen. If you want to find any any more about me, learn more about who I am, you can go to thecaninesconsultant.com. I'm also on TikTok under that name, as well as Facebook.

1:01:50 Awesome. Again, thank you so much. And guys, make sure to check out the show notes for links to everything. Adiya, it was just such a pleasure to have you on. I'm so excited for people to start listening to your podcast because you have such great information so. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. With that guys, thank you so much for being here. Please give your pet some extra love from me and Adiya this week and I will talk to you next week.