221. Homemade vs. Commercial Dog Food: What You’re Getting Wrong with Dr. Susan Recker

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Welcome back, pet parent.
Since I started this podcast and

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I started having guests on, I
created a list of like my I

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would love, love, love to have
these guests on my show and I

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wish I had been able to find it
for this recording with the move

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and everything.
It's somewhere in a box, but I

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have been able to get a couple
of those like, Oh my gosh, I

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would love to have these people
on my podcast list.

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And today I have another one.
I'm so excited.

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I have Doctor Susan Recker with
us today.

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And first of all, let me just go
ahead and invite you on.

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Thank you so much for being
here.

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Doctor Recker, How the heck are
you?

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Well.
Thank you, Jessica, and thank

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you for the kind words.
That's very sweet of you to say

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and I'm delighted to be here.
Thank you for inviting me and

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I'm doing great.
I'm ready to talk nutrition

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today.
So you have done so many things

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and I know you kind of went
through a journey like a lot of

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other veterinarians have.
That's one of the things that I

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actually really love to talk
about when I have a veterinarian

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on, is like, how did you go from
your probably very conventional

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training in vet school to where
you are now?

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Yeah, yeah, it was a journey for
sure.

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And it then the journey
continues.

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Yeah, I definitely had a very
conventional beginning.

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My education was very
conventional, as it is for most

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of us.
And I worked in conventional

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practice for the first, well,
most of my career actually.

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But I didn't start to
incorporate integrative things

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until probably, I don't know,
but maybe like 10 years in.

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And so that happened because of
a confluence of different

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factors.
One of them was that I had

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children and as I was becoming
very aware of and concerned

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about every little thing that
went into or onto their little

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bodies, I started to look at
nutrition pretty deeply for

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people.
And then, you know, you'd think

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that would be an automatic
obvious connection that the same

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is true for for animals, but it
wasn't necessarily immediate.

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But not too long into kind of
really diving into human

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nutrition, I was like, well,
wait a minute, I think this is

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probably pretty important for
animals as well.

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And you know, as you kind of
alluded to, conventional

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veterinary training and
nutrition is very, very limited

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and very much skewed towards
ultra processed foods.

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So feeding fresh foods was was
kind of new and out-of-the-box

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and not something I was
comfortable with right off the

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bat.
But one of the other factors

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that came into play at the same
time was in addition to

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considering considering
nutrition, I was also starting

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to become kind of dissatisfied
with treatment outcomes in my

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patients.
You know, I would follow the

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algorithm, follow the book of
what I was taught, right?

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And, and what I was taught was,
you know, if the animal has

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condition A and you do treatment
B, the outcome will be C Well,

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that wasn't necessarily always
true.

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And I was very frustrated with,
OK, well, I did the treatment

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and they didn't get better.
So what else is there?

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There's got to be something
else.

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And so that started me to look
at some other integrative

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modalities to try to incorporate
into my treatment toolbox for my

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patients.
And so around that time I became

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certified in veterinary spinal
manipulation therapy, which in

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some states of the country you
can call chiropractic for

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animals, but not in Wisconsin,
where I became certified.

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Yeah, so so I have the the
letter CVSMT after my name,

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which means certification and
veterinary spinal manipulation

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therapy.
And people are often times like,

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well, what does that mean?
And I'm like chiropractic, but

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you can't say that out loud.
So and so that that opened my

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eyes to a lot of other
modalities as well.

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And if, if you have any
experience with human

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chiropractors, you know that
oftentimes they are very focused

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on nutrition because that that
treatment option very much

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appreciates and recognizes the
connection between food and

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health or disease.
And so that package together

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really kind of got me started
with feeding fresh Food First in

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my own pets and then I saw
obviously a huge change in them

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and that gave me the confidence
to kind of branch out and start

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doing that with with my animal
patients as well.

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That's amazing.
Yes.

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And it's very interesting about
the insight about chiropractors

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because you said that and I'm
like, yeah, especially like in

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the past five years on social
media that not all, but a lot of

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the doctors that are speaking
out that have been speaking out

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and they're like, wait a second,
We've been we've been doing this

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forever and you guys just
haven't been listening to us.

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I've.
Been a chiropractor?

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Yeah, it's true.
Yeah.

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So one of the things that people
are more familiar with you on is

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the animal diet formulator and
some of the collaborations that

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you have had in recent years
with Doctor Karen Becker, Steve

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Brown.
When you say you got interested

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in nutrition like that, that's a
that's a journey in and of

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itself.
I feel like I know and I'll just

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really quickly, I know people
who have been listening for a

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while know like my story has
been crazy with nutrition.

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I go back and forth a lot
between, you know, I'll learn

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something and I'm like, Oh my
gosh, this is so complicated.

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And then I'll learn something
else.

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Especially I, I just, I tend to
always go back to Doctor

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Billinghurst because every time
I like get in my head, I'll go

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listen to Doctor Billinghurst
and I'm like, oh, no way.

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This is simple.
I need to, I need to chill.

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So I go back and forth a lot.
I I'm just curious, like to hear

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a little bit more about your
journey with nutrition and

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animals and, and that roller
that to me, it's a, it's a

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roller coaster.
Yeah, yeah.

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And I agree with you.
You know, I mean, in some ways

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it is complex.
There are a lot of factors to

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consider if we're going to look
at the total picture.

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But in other ways, it is simple,
You know, I, I'm, I'm always

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hopeful that the message that I
can convey is don't give up

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because it seems too
complicated.

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Anything that you can do towards
putting more fresh food in the

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bowl is a plus.
Now, I am a fan of complete and

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balanced because we do know that
there are minimum nutrient

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requirements.
And so my personal comfort level

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is I need to make sure that if
I'm recommending a food to that

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somebody's going to feed to
their animal.

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I am not going to be responsible
for, for that animal having

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nutrient deficiencies.
I'm just not because we know

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that they can be linked to
disease.

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And I don't want to be, I want
to, I want to help promote

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health.
I don't in any way want to

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promote disease.
And so for me, that means I have

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to be comfortable knowing it's
going to meet all those nutrient

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requirements.
But having said that, you know,

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if you're feeding, if you're at
a place where you're feeding

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kibble, because that's what
works for you or that's the only

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thing you know how to do or
that's what you can afford,

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whatever, OK, great.
But we can, we can add some

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fresh food to the bowl.
And that's a good way to start

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and build your comfort level and
get your pet acclimated, all

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those kinds of things.
So that's kind of how I started

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with with my clients when I
first started moving into

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nutrition.
And then the more I learn, the

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more strategies I develop and
the more I focus on different

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areas of nutrition and what's
important.

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So part of my nutrition journey
and like you mentioned with

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Doctor Karen Becker and Steve
Brown.

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So Karen Becker and I are
besties, have been for 30 one

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years now.
We met the first day of vet

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school orientation.
We sat next to each other and

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became besties men and have been
ever since.

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And so we have been great
friends during that whole time.

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We didn't necessarily have a lot
of professional collaboration

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until just the last few years.
And that came about because I

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had the good fortune of living
in the same neighborhood with

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Karen.
We were literal next door

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neighbors and lo and behold, who
was my other next door neighbor

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but Steve Brown.
So I got to sit next to Steve at

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his mass of Excel spreadsheet,
which is super intimidating and

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learn from him how he
formulates.

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And then I became associated
with animal diet formulator.

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So ADF bought Steve's
spreadsheet and converted it

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into a cloud based more
intuitive program.

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So I look at Steve's Excel and
I'm like, Oh yeah, too much,

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can't do it too, too crazy.
But then the ADF version is

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something that my brain can can
handle and makes it much more

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user friendly.
So this whole kind of people

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find themselves on one of two
sides sometimes the the wing at

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people and the spreadsheet
people.

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And, and there is a lot of
common ground there.

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If we, if we really stop to
think about it, most of us who

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are in fresh feeding, no matter
which side of that, of that

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spectrum we fall on, we just
want to nourish our animals the

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best we can.
That's our goal, both of us,

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right?
And so the wing at people, I

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would say to them, I get it.
You know, we don't spreadsheet

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our own food.
However, when I did that for

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myself when I first started this
journey, because I thought that

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was a valid point to bring up,
like we don't spreadsheet for

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people.
Why are we doing it for animals?

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So I was like, okay, well, I'm
in a spreadsheet for myself for

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a couple weeks and just see how
it looks.

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Well, it was awful.
And I think that I eat a pretty

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varied, diverse diet of Whole
Foods.

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I don't eat a lot of processed
food.

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I eat a wide variety of plants
and animal products that are

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that are responsibly sourced.
And I was like, I got this

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nailed.
I'm going to be I'm going to

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have like, you know, Gold Star
for me is what I'm going to see

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when I spreadsheet my own diet.
Well, I did not.

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I had consistent nutrient
deficiencies that even though I

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was eating a variety of foods, I
wasn't necessarily nailing some

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of those deficiencies.
And so that for me was the aha

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moment where if we're rotating
foods for animals, but if we're

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rotating between foods that
share the same nutrient

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deficiencies, that animal will
always have those one or two or

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five nutrient deficiencies.
And so that was the, the cue

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that for me said, OK, I fall
more on the spreadsheet side

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because I need to know that I'm
meeting all those requirements.

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But the, the pitfall that's easy
to fall into on that side is, is

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getting like super granular and
going out to like 3 decimal

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places and being like, OK, well,
I need .001 more milligrams of

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this to meet the nutrient
requirement.

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OK, well, is that really, is
that really like accurate?

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Because if I if I have two
carrots, they're not going to

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have the exactly identical
nutrient profile.

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There's going to be some natural
nutrient variability.

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If I have one package of 9010
beef from the grocery store and

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another package from another
store or even another package

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from the same store, they're not
going to have the exact same

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nutrient profile.
So that nutrient data that we

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use is a good starting point.
But for me, it's also not like

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the Bible where I'm like, no,
this has been 4 milligrams of

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zinc per 100 milligrams.
Well, yeah, maybe it does, maybe

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it doesn't, but that's kind of a
good ballpark for me to look at

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to have a starting point to to
make sure that I'm meeting my

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goals.
So I have no idea if I answer

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the question that you just asked
me and I went off on a big

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tangent.
Is OK, You're so, so brave to

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spreadsheet your own own meals.
There is zero chance.

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First of all, I don't think I
would have like the bandwidth.

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I just be like, by the by the
first night, I'd be like, Nope,

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this just isn't this isn't worth
it at all.

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I think I could, I could do it
much easier for my pets and I

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could myself.
I just be like, no, I'm just not

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all that concerned like at.
Well, I just have to, in the

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spirit of Full disclosure.
So now I know that I have

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nutrient deficiencies.
Did I do anything about it?

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No.
I'm making sure that my animals

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have none.
But if I am I making sure that I

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have none?
Not all the time, no.

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So no, I know and it's it drives
me up the wall because I feel

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00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:54,760
like I do so much for me, like
personally and not even talking

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00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,640
about my animals.
I do a lot for them too, but

228
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,080
like for me, I feel like I do so
much and I literally take

229
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,600
because I, I am not one, I am
not the girl to be eating organ

230
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,040
meat, but I will take like
desiccated organ supplements And

231
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,760
I, I really try to be very
particular about making sure

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00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,240
that I'm getting these things in
my body.

233
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,160
And, and I still, I still am
struggling with some

234
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,160
deficiencies and I'm like, how,
how is this happening?

235
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,800
It's driving me up the wall and
I'm about to throw, throw in the

236
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,840
towel.
But yeah, you know, and to your

237
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,160
point earlier, as someone who
does, you know, I do work with

238
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,080
clients with their dogs and
their cats.

239
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:49,080
It is a really weird like
position to be in where an

240
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,000
honest, I'm just going to be
really honest because I tell my

241
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,040
clients this all the time.
Like it kind of depends on you

242
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,040
as to where I'm going to go with
how we're going to feed your

243
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,520
pet.
Because there is a part of me

244
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,280
that feels like this obligation
that everything has to be every

245
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,680
bite that this animal has to
eat, you know, needs to be AFCO

246
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,200
complete and balanced and meet
all minimum nutrient rate.

247
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,720
And then, but then there's this
other part of me that's like,

248
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,080
we're going to kill ourselves
for trying to do this all the

249
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,280
time, like at home DIY, not
necessary.

250
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,520
You know, we, we rely on
commercial brands, which is

251
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,440
something else I, I would love
to touch on because you were one

252
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,000
of the panelists in the inside
scoop talking about all these

253
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,880
different brands that, you know,
they were asked to, to provide

254
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,880
full nutrient profiles and all
the things.

255
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,760
So that, so that the inside
scoop could give an overall

256
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,600
rating of what they would love
to see your pets eat or, you

257
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,000
know, best food, quote UN quote,
all the things.

258
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,840
But if we're not relying on a
commercial brand, which I think

259
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,720
that series in and of itself, if
anybody watched it or even heard

260
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:03,680
about it, we kind of know that
Hopefully if you get nothing

261
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,680
else from that series, it's not
to feed the same food over and

262
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:08,520
over.
It's not to feed the same brand

263
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,160
over and over and over again,
but to actually DIY food for

264
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,280
your pet.
Like you.

265
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,400
I feel like as a pet parent, you
have to decide like, am I going

266
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,280
to be that like completely anal,
everything needs to be perfect

267
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,600
person or am I going to be like,
this is good and I'm going to do

268
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,080
something different next week
and that's going to be good and

269
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,720
we're going to we're going to
make this work.

270
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,600
That said, when people do that,
like more balance, balance

271
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,080
overtime type model, What do you
obviously it's going to be

272
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,920
vastly different from person to
person, from animal to animal.

273
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:52,120
But what are some of those like
really common deficiencies that

274
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,800
that you see in dogs
specifically when people are

275
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,400
just like, I'm going to rotate
through things week after week

276
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:05,400
and hope for the best.
SO in fresh food diets, I would

277
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,920
say the most typical
deficiencies would be, and I'm

278
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,400
going to, I'm going to list a
lot here because most, most of

279
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,200
the time it's not all of these
in, in any one person's plan,

280
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,720
but the common threads that I
see generally speaking, so

281
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:28,880
magnesium, potassium, manganese,
iodine, vitamin D, vitamin E,

282
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:35,520
thiamine, choline, sometimes
linoleic acid, if people are

283
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,080
really like afraid of too many
Omega sixes.

284
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,920
Sometimes they view the opposite
way and their animals actually

285
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,000
deficient.
And then EPA DHA.

286
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,360
So quite, quite a few common
deficiencies, unfortunately.

287
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,800
Yeah.
And I being somebody and I want

288
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,000
to talk more about the animal
diet formulator in a minute, but

289
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,480
being somebody that has like I
have used the animal diet

290
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,600
formulator for 2:00-ish years
now, maybe a little bit more.

291
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:09,040
I do notice a couple of those
are really difficult to meet

292
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,600
AFCO minimums with like
manganese, vitamin E.

293
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,120
Those are just some of the ones
that I'm like, these are things

294
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,840
that I'm like, that is like,
where are we getting this from?

295
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,360
How is how is the average person
making food at home for their

296
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,080
pet?
Like, how are we gonna do that

297
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,680
if if we're using Whole Foods?
Yeah, yeah.

298
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,320
I'm currently I'm visualizing
about 5 different rabbit trails

299
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,400
that I would like to go down
based on what you just said.

300
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,600
So I'll pick a couple and you
just interrupt me if if needed.

301
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,920
The first thing is the data
we're using impacts that too.

302
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,680
So like if you're formulating
using USDA ingredients, your

303
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,600
recipes might always show as
deficient in iodine and

304
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,880
deficient in chloride and
deficient in choline because a

305
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,400
lot of times USDA does not give
values for those.

306
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,560
So even in ADF if you, if you
plug those those ingredients in,

307
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,720
but they're USDA ingredients,
there is no value for, there's

308
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,520
never a value for iodine.
There's oftentimes not a value

309
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,119
for choline.
So the first thing I would say

310
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,599
like if you're using ADF and you
plug that in, you're like, I'm

311
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,119
not, so I'm deficient in
choline.

312
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,760
Well, look at your ingredients.
Is there a choline value listed?

313
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,200
If there isn't, are you truly
deficient in choline?

314
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,920
Maybe, maybe not.
We don't know because we don't

315
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,480
know what the choline level is
of that particular ingredient.

316
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:31,520
So that's one thing a Whole
Foods recipes are really

317
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,560
challenging to meet for less
active animals.

318
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840
And most of our pets in the US
are less active and we don't

319
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,120
think they are because like for
example, my own dog, I have a 5

320
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,800
year old golden retriever, we
walk for about an hour a day.

321
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,640
She's actually very inactive in
terms of what category I would

322
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,520
choose for her to formulate in
based on the number of calories

323
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,440
it takes for her to maintain her
body weight.

324
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,080
So people are like, yeah, I walk
for an hour a day.

325
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,920
We're super active.
Yeah, that's actually like super

326
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,560
inactive in terms of
formulation.

327
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,440
And so that's the first thing
is, you know, don't don't be

328
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,000
offended by the activity level
label that your pet falls into.

329
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,120
It's not an indictment of you as
a pet parent not providing

330
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,320
enough activity.
It's just based on what does

331
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,840
that that calorie outlay
actually look like in terms of

332
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,720
their metabolic need.
But the less active your pet,

333
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,120
the fewer calories they need to
maintain their body weight

334
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,440
everyday, the more nutrients
they need packed into that

335
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,120
package of calories.
So that leads me to the biggest

336
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,880
can of worms that I'm going to
maybe open here today, which is

337
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,720
AFCO.
AFCO, I just discovered this.

338
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,520
I'm, I'm currently writing an
article for the Journal of

339
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,760
Integrated Veterinary Therapies
on nutrition for less active

340
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,960
pets.
And I did a deep dive into AFCO

341
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,880
looking for what their calorie
guidance is.

342
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,720
Well, they don't give any, and
that's a problem.

343
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,720
The reason that's a problem is
this.

344
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,240
They set a nutrient profile.
They're like, OK, here's the

345
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,600
nutrient levels that have to be
in this food to be complete and

346
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,560
balanced.
So let's just say I'll just make

347
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,640
up numbers here.
So let's say the nutrient

348
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,760
profile says that you have to
have 20 milligrams of zinc in

349
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,960
every 1000 calories.
Great, OK, we got it.

350
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,480
At no point do they say, OK, so
the dog has to eat this many

351
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,040
calories to ensure that they get
that amount of zinc.

352
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,280
So like this 40 LB dog needs to
eat 1000 calories and therefore

353
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,520
consume 20 milligrams of zinc
every day, complete and balanced

354
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,720
for zinc.
Great.

355
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,240
They don't say that.
So they're like, Yep, put that

356
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,240
much in the diet.
Well, what if your dog is only

357
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,000
eating 600 calories per day?
Then they're not getting 20

358
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,640
milligrams of zinc per day,
they're getting less.

359
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,640
So there there needs to be a
connection between not only how

360
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,360
many, how much of every nutrient
is in that diet, but how much of

361
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,640
the diet is the animal actually
eating.

362
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,240
You can say that the diet is
complete and balanced to AFCO,

363
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,320
but if the animal is not eating
the energy intake assumption,

364
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,480
then they're not getting that
full amount.

365
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,160
So go ahead.
Well, and that's very

366
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,800
interesting and I know like
we've talked about, we've been

367
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,080
talking about this for a couple
of years now I'll probably.

368
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,440
Certainly because of the work
that you've been doing when as a

369
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,080
veterinarian, but when
veterinarians very, very often

370
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,880
say, especially with cats say
cut the amount that you're like,

371
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,720
please buy this beautiful bag
that is sitting behind my

372
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:24,240
counter from whatever company is
I probably learned from in

373
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,520
cotton cotton veterinary school.
Buy this beautiful bag and it

374
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,240
says to feed a cup of food a
day.

375
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,880
But your cat is overweight
because there is no enrichment

376
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,320
in your home, so feed half of
that.

377
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:42,600
That is a huge problem.
Huge, huge.

378
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,080
Well, and and there's there's so
many layers to the problem.

379
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,960
First of all, the bag says feed
a cup a day.

380
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,240
Is that necessarily tied to the
level the food was formulated

381
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,840
at?
Nope, because AFCO doesn't

382
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,800
require that either because they
don't set and energy intake

383
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,480
guidelines so they don't require
that.

384
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,280
The feeding directions reflect
that.

385
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,120
So first of all, we're behind
the 8 ball there.

386
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,000
The amount that it says on the
bag doesn't necessarily provide

387
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,880
all the needed nutrients because
they can set the feeding

388
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,960
guidelines at whatever they
want.

389
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,120
Then the next thing is that the
activity levels and it's, yeah,

390
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,040
most indoor kitties don't get a
ton of of structured activity.

391
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,800
But even if they did, even if
you're playing with your cat for

392
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,000
an hour a day and they're, you
know, running zoomies and you've

393
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,840
got those cool shelves on your
wall and they can like, you

394
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,080
know, traverse your whole house
up at ceiling height, you've

395
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,320
made like a awesome jungle gym
for them.

396
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,960
They're probably still not
eating at the energy intake

397
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,040
assumption set by NRC, who was
the one that actually set those

398
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,320
nutrient levels that AFCO bases
off of their calorie

399
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,600
recommendation is super, super
high.

400
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,680
And it actually aligns more
closely to today's pets that

401
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,880
would maybe like an outdoor barn
cat in Minnesota in the winter.

402
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,520
That kind of calorie intake is
what those nutrient levels are

403
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,120
really set for.
Yeah.

404
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,640
It's.
Such a huge difference because

405
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,120
you're burning so many more
calories to stay warm in

406
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,240
Minnesota in the wind.
Oh my goodness.

407
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,160
That's crazy.
No wonder all of our cats are

408
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,800
fat.
Exactly, exactly.

409
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,600
And to your point then when,
when, and I was guilty of this

410
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,680
too, we'll just feed less, keep
feeding less until you see

411
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,280
weight loss.
Well, lots of micronutrient

412
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,640
deficiencies happen.
But for cats in particular, what

413
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,120
happens is protein deficiency.
And you know, we've all seen

414
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,840
those, those older kiddies who
are just wasting away and they

415
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,000
have like no muscle mass on
their little limbs anymore.

416
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,680
But the, the other important
muscle we have to think about is

417
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,400
the heart.
The heart is muscle.

418
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,880
And so when we're not supplying
protein, we are really leaving

419
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,240
those animals at risk for a lot
of bad things to happen, heart

420
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,840
disease, frailty, all sorts of
stuff.

421
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,560
That is, we're not doing them
any favors by just feeding less

422
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,080
of an inappropriately formulated
food for that activity level.

423
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,640
Yeah, yeah.
What, what, what, what do you

424
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,360
think?
What do you, I mean, I'm you

425
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,280
probably don't have the answer
and that's totally fine, but

426
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,880
what do you think?
What is what is your train of

427
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,200
thought on like what we should
be doing?

428
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,800
There needs to be a revolution.
I mean, like big is what needs

429
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,560
to happen.
Like, you know, I so don't get

430
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,560
me wrong, I'm glad we have AFCO.
I'm glad we have something like

431
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560
if there were no guidelines at
all, that would not be good.

432
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,200
But what we have is not adequate
and it is not serving today's

433
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040
pets there.
There are a very small

434
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,960
percentage of dogs and cats in
the US whose intake energy

435
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,080
intake level actually aligns
with the intake assumption of

436
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,320
AFCO.
So for those dogs doing 3 hours

437
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,440
of agility a day or those cats
who live in the barn in

438
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Minnesota, Afco's got you
covered.

439
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,160
For the other 99% of animals in
the US, it's not enough.

440
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,680
And so there needs to be
guidance for commercial

441
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,800
companies to properly formulate
for these less active animals to

442
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,240
make sure that they're getting
their.

443
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,240
So NRC set metabolic
requirements.

444
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,000
If you look at the body weight
of an animal, you, you then

445
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,360
calculate their metabolic body
weight and NRC says, OK, they

446
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,200
may need this many milligrams of
this nutrient per metabolic body

447
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,440
weight, doesn't matter what
their activity level is, but

448
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,120
that's how much they need.
Those caloric profiles are based

449
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:22,520
on that.
But again, they're based on

450
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,360
super high activity level
assumption.

451
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,600
So let's make some new caloric
profiles that are more suited to

452
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,200
less active pets.
So that's what needs to happen

453
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,280
on an individual pet level.
If you are making your own food,

454
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,960
you can do that.
You can formulate an ADF or in

455
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,600
another tool by setting that
activity level much lower and

456
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,960
generating the nutrient profile
according to that metabolic

457
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,760
need.
It is possible to do you're

458
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,800
you're not going to get there by
winging it though, because like

459
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,080
we were mentioning, a lot of
whole food sources are not that

460
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,840
nutrient dense in terms of
amount of nutrient per calorie.

461
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,840
That's where we run into
problems like vitamin E Vitamin

462
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,800
E is a fat soluble vitamin, so
it's found in higher fat foods.

463
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,080
So if we're going to add enough
of that food to meet the vitamin

464
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,360
E requirement, we have now added
a ton of fat calories which then

465
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,120
dilutes out all the other
nutrients if we look at them on

466
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,400
a per thousand K Cal basis.
So yeah, there are a lot of

467
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,640
factors at play here in terms of
why aren't I meeting these

468
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160
nutrient requirements.
Those are some of the reasons.

469
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,320
So I mean, I get why people are
like, I'm just going to wing it

470
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
with my tongue.
I get it.

471
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,400
I get it as a veterinarian.
What are some of the signs, some

472
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,160
of the more obvious signs that a
pet parent could actually see

473
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,240
physically in their dog if their
dog is undernourished?

474
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,640
That is such a tricky question
for a couple reasons. 1 is that

475
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,800
there's very little research in
this area.

476
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,920
There's very little research to
say what are the ramifications

477
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,520
of long term chronic nutrient
deficiencies.

478
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320
Like for example, in less active
animals, we know what they are

479
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,440
for growth.
Like if you don't provide enough

480
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,440
nutrients during growth phases,
there's some pretty, pretty

481
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,720
obvious signs of disease and
inappropriate development in

482
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,200
adult animals.
It's often times much more

483
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,040
insidious and you're not going
to see it from a couple of

484
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,840
months or a couple of years even
of feeding nutrient deficient

485
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,840
diets.
But if we look at the rise of

486
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,560
chronic degenerative disease in
our pets, how much of that is

487
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,320
tied to chronic nutrient
deficiencies?

488
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,000
I don't know the answer to that,
but I think it's an important

489
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,840
question that we need to be
asking.

490
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,200
And from my perspective, if we
can take that off the table as a

491
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,880
cause, why wouldn't we?
Like if, if chronic protein

492
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,040
deficiency is, is contributing
to heart disease or if chronic

493
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:48,080
phosphorus excess is
contributing to kidney disease,

494
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,920
why wouldn't we take those
things off the table and get the

495
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,960
nutrients lined up where they
should be?

496
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440
And then we can look at, OK,
well, if we're still having

497
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,120
disease now, where's it coming
from and what can we do to

498
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,760
address it?
But if we know there are gaps,

499
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,440
my school of thought says I'm
going to fill those first.

500
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,080
And I think, again, not being a
veterinarian, I could be totally

501
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,520
wrong about this, but I think
it's even harder to see these

502
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,680
things in our cats.
And I think part of that is we,

503
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,160
I mean, we talk about it all the
time, but realistically in a

504
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,000
home, it's still difficult for
people to not to look at their

505
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,520
cat and say this is a
completely, totally different

506
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,440
species from my dog and not look
at them and treat them the same

507
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,080
way.
Yeah, yeah.

508
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,320
And so I know I keep giving kind
of vague answers to this, but I

509
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,800
don't know how to do it any
differently.

510
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,280
If there's anything that that
isn't right.

511
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Like if you look at your Kitty
and you don't think my cat looks

512
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,680
like the picture of health.
I mean, you know, she's she's

513
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,640
lean and well muscled and shiny
coat and she's got bright eyes

514
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,080
and she's got tons of energy.
If any of those things are not

515
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,680
true, I, I can't tell you for
sure that there's a nutrient

516
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,720
deficiency, but I would sure
look at it.

517
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,880
You know, like if the, if the,
if your cat's itchy or has hair

518
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,040
loss or is shedding a lot or
just has kind of a dry coat, or

519
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,840
if they, if your Kitty looks
like a middle-aged man with a

520
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,440
beer gut, like spindly legs and
big belly.

521
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,920
You know, something probably
nutritionally not ideal if your

522
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,160
kitty's just not as, as active,
if they're reluctant to, to be

523
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,520
jumping up and down or they're
not doing the things that they

524
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,120
normally do.
Or if you see any GI signs like

525
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,760
is there vomiting?
Is there diarrhea or

526
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Constipation?
Huge problem in cats.

527
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Is there a change in, in their
eating habits or their drinking

528
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,280
habits?
Like any of these things,

529
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,600
anything that's different or if
you picture a totally healthy

530
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,200
cat in your brain and your Kitty
does not look like that, I think

531
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,480
it's just worth asking the
question, is there something

532
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,400
that isn't optimal?
Maybe there's not, you know,

533
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,960
like there's there's a wide
range of what's normal and maybe

534
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,080
your Kitty is just built in a
way that's not what you would

535
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,800
conjure up in your mind as that
ideal.

536
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,920
But I just think it's worth
asking that question.

537
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,640
Is there something that is not
being addressed or something

538
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,600
that could be optimized to help
my cat or my dog?

539
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,400
Yeah, I actually, I told myself
over the past handful of years

540
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,800
I'm not not doing cats again.
For a while I've had there.

541
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,720
There's such a big commitment to
me, even though Jay and Adrian

542
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,040
yell at me every time I say
this.

543
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,320
They are much harder than dogs.
They are much harder than dogs.

544
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,840
And I have just like all of my
cats have been they're, they're,

545
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,240
they're seniors, they're older.
I just lost my 17 year old.

546
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,400
I have 216 year olds right now.
And I'm like, no more cats.

547
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Well, the universe said, ha ha,
try again.

548
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,880
I was on my way driving EU Haul
back from Texas and stopped for

549
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,760
a little pit stop.
And this little kitten was like,

550
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,960
Nope, you're my family now.
And I know, right?

551
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,680
I, you know, my cats that I have
now the 1st 7:00-ish years of

552
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,360
their life, 6-7 years because I,
I started with my dogs before I

553
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,560
moved over to my cats to try to
get them on better foods, get

554
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,840
them healthier, remove all the
chemicals, all the things.

555
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,800
So the first like 6-7 years of
their life, they really were

556
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,960
raised conventionally.
They got every single vaccine as

557
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,440
soon as the card said it was
time.

558
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,160
They I, I was in Virginia for
most of their early life, so

559
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,560
they were dewormed quarterly.
It I mean, like I did all the

560
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,000
things they were on, you know,
three different types of Royal

561
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,520
Canin food, because that's what
my vet said what they needed to

562
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,280
be on.
I did.

563
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,920
I thought I was like the best
pet parent in the world, right?

564
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,160
Cringe now, but.
But you were according to what

565
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,800
you knew at that time, right?
Like you were the best pet

566
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,040
parent in the world working with
what you had.

567
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,560
You were.
True, true.

568
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:13,400
I I do cringe now, but this
little kitten I do like as much

569
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,040
as I'm like, man, why am I
starting over with a kitten?

570
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,800
I at least now I'm like, this is
going to be kind of cool to see

571
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,560
how he's going to grow up to see
the differences in health

572
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,600
outcomes and quality of life.
Knowing what I know now and

573
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,520
starting him from like
literally, I will tell.

574
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,080
We were in like what I would
consider a food desert where we

575
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,800
stopped, where we found him.
There were first, there was zero

576
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,360
chance I was going to like a big
box pet store, but there were no

577
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,120
indie pet stores around.
Only grocery store I could find

578
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,800
was a Food Lion.
So I'm like the best of the

579
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,120
worst and you know, feeding this
kitten ground beef from the

580
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,800
grocery store, I'm like, what
else do I do?

581
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,880
Right?
I'm not going to put kibble in

582
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,880
his mouth.
So he's been great so far.

583
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:13,480
He is just loving life on.
I have in the three, not even 3

584
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,320
weeks I've had him, he has tried
like 5 different brands of

585
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,560
commercial raw foods.
Like we're going to get him on

586
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,400
like the best I can can possibly
do.

587
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,760
And so like this is, I will say,
as far as cats go, I'm really,

588
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,200
really like crossing my fingers
on this one that that we're

589
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,840
going to see much better health
outcomes.

590
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,920
Because with my previous cats, I
definitely felt it even with the

591
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,040
two that I still have now, like
I'm seeing what I did to them in

592
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,960
the first almost half of their
life coming to like I'm seeing

593
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,840
the outcomes of that later in,
in life where some people may

594
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,160
not connect those dots.
And maybe I'm over connecting

595
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,680
dots, I don't know.
But like, to me, I'm seeing what

596
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,880
all this has done, done to them.
And so cats.

597
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Yeah, cats.
Well, I'm really glad that the

598
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,560
cat distribution system saw fit
to bring you a new Kitty.

599
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,160
Apparently, apparently.
OK, so the animal Diet

600
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,920
Formulator, ADF, we've talked
about it a little bit here and

601
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,960
there already, but can you just
kind of give me an overview for

602
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,520
people who are not at all
familiar?

603
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,040
They're like, what the heck are
you talking about?

604
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,120
What?
What is this?

605
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Yeah.
So Animal Diet Formulator is

606
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920
formulation software to
formulate complete balanced

607
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,880
diets for dogs and cats.
We're geared primarily towards

608
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,680
fresh food, but we do have some
commercial users that that can

609
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,080
make kibble using our
formulation software.

610
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320
That's really not our our thrust
or our focus.

611
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,200
So we have a lot of commercial
companies that make fresh food

612
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,600
using our formulation software.
We have a professional tier

613
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,040
where veterinarians and
nutritionists use our software

614
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,800
to make recipes for their
clients.

615
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,560
And we have an individual tier
for individual pet parents who

616
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,920
want to make complete and
balanced diets for their dogs

617
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,760
and cats.
And you can formulate to AFCO,

618
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880
to Fetty F and to NRC.
So you can choose which one of

619
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,239
those nutrient profile standards
you want to use.

620
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,560
Again, I'll make a plug for
formulating to Fetty F because

621
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,880
you can choose an activity level
there and generate the

622
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,360
appropriate nutrient profile
based on that activity level.

623
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,440
Feti F, just like NRC gives
minimum metabolic requirements.

624
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,400
So that's why we're able to do
that there.

625
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,600
Feti F doesn't even acknowledge
that's a thing.

626
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,040
So if you choose to formulate in
AFCO, then what you get is

627
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,199
Afco's one and only adult
profile, Afco's one and only

628
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,199
growth profile.
There is no customization for

629
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:45,000
activity levels with AFCO.
So for most people listening, if

630
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,560
you're considering using ADF to
make your your animals diet, I

631
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,400
would strongly recommend
choosing Feti F to formulate in

632
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,800
there.
So the formulation software

633
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,239
where we'll help you make that
complete and balanced diet,

634
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,560
it'll offer you suggestions if
you're like, oh gosh, so I'm

635
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,880
deficient in magnesium.
How do I add that?

636
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,680
The software has tools that will
suggest ingredients, whole food

637
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,720
or supplements to help you make
that that diet complete and

638
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,080
balanced.
So I know a lot of different

639
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,160
people use the ADF software.
One of the things that I thought

640
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,080
was really cool when I saw you
at Super Jutsu a couple months

641
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,680
ago, you had actually put
together a presentation for Indy

642
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:30,120
pet stores to use it alongside
commercially available diets.

643
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,760
Because there are a good number
so far of these smaller fresh

644
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,400
food companies that are like,
yeah, please, here you go.

645
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,040
Like we, we want this
information out there.

646
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,560
We want to be transparent with
our customers and we want people

647
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,840
to have fun with it and add
things to it and make their pets

648
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,000
bowl even better, which I think
is great.

649
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,920
But that's I don't know if you
want to elaborate or what I just

650
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,880
said.
Yeah, yeah.

651
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,280
And that that is one way to
mitigate some of the problem

652
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,920
that we talked about earlier
with foods, commercial foods

653
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,600
being formulated to AFCO and not
always being appropriate for

654
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,560
less active pets in ADF.
We have entered as ingredients

655
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,720
commercial foods, as many as we
can get a complete nutritional

656
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,200
analysis for.
And so let me just say shout out

657
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,600
to those companies who just put
it right out on their website

658
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,080
who are totally transparent and
they're like, yeah, this is

659
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,360
what's in our food.
We believe that you deserve to

660
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,200
know what you're feeding your
dog or your cat.

661
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,720
Here are the nutrients they're
getting.

662
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,160
But there are some companies
that don't do that, but they

663
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,400
have provided us a complete
nutritional analysis when we've

664
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,720
requested it.
And so for foods where we have a

665
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,640
nutrient analysis, we have
entered them into ADF as

666
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,280
ingredients.
So if you have an individual

667
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,720
subscription, you could go in
and create a recipe where one of

668
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,880
your ingredients would be a
commercial complete and balanced

669
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,080
AFCO food.
You would put that in.

670
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,400
And then when if you're using
Fatty F and you're set on the

671
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,240
appropriate activity level, you
can see what the deficiencies

672
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,520
might be for your less active
dog or cat.

673
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,240
And then you can use ADF to
suggest other ingredients that

674
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,840
would fill those gaps.
And they might be other

675
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,280
commercial products like in the
video that I put together for

676
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,760
Super Zoo, I had used a complete
and balanced air dried food, I

677
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,720
think it was.
And there was a deficiency in, I

678
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,800
want to say it was potassium.
And then I used a commercial

679
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,680
fresh greens blend to fill that
potassium need.

680
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,000
And there was a deficiency in I
think maybe tryptophan and amino

681
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,920
acid.
And I used some freeze dried

682
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,720
beef heart to fill that
deficiency.

683
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,240
So you don't have to totally
home make or cook your your

684
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,800
animals food.
You can can put together a

685
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,320
combination of commercial
products if that's what's better

686
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,760
for you to make sure that you're
filling those gaps.

687
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,840
And it can be a hybrid.
So maybe you're, you're feeding

688
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,600
a commercial food.
You look in ADF, you see the

689
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,200
deficiencies and you're like,
well deficient in choline.

690
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,800
I'm going to add an egg yolk.
OK, well, there you go.

691
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,400
You know you can, you can do a
balance of commercial plus

692
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,720
additions from your kitchen to
make sure that that food is

693
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,600
totally meeting the needs of
your animal.

694
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,960
So you have a lot of options
depending on what works for you.

695
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,600
I love that.
And I just want to quickly run

696
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,680
through, you talked earlier
about how if you're using just a

697
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,880
USDA typical value, you might
not have a complete nutrient

698
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,240
profile just because the USDA
doesn't provide it.

699
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,080
And that is when you are using a
commercial food that gives you

700
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:39,560
that full nutrient profile like
you don't, you don't have that,

701
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,760
but like because they're testing
which is not inexpensive to do.

702
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,600
Yeah.
Well, and that's, that's a good

703
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,440
point.
Not all companies are testing

704
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,360
their food.
Some are and some aren't.

705
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,600
So the complete nutritional
analysis that they give us might

706
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,320
be from tested data or it might
be from formulated data.

707
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,600
And so we're using whatever the
company is providing as here's

708
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,680
what represents our food.
And so that's up to the company

709
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,240
to determine how they want to
represent their food.

710
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Now in an ideal world, yeah,
they would be doing nutrient

711
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,160
testing on their food and not
just once, because anyone test

712
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,920
is not necessarily
representative, but it would be

713
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,440
a compilation of four or five or
ten tests over a period of time

714
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,440
that would give a more
representative look at that.

715
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,480
But like you said, that's that's
expensive.

716
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,760
So if we can at least have some
idea of what nutrients and are

717
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,640
in the food, whether that's
formulated or from one test,

718
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,280
that's certainly better than
just guessing.

719
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,600
And there are a number of
companies out there that say

720
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,840
give some line a hooey, like we
can't divulge that it's

721
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,200
proprietary.
Well, yeah, nutrients aren't

722
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,120
proprietary.
I'm sorry, your formula might

723
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,520
be.
And we don't need your formula

724
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,000
to put it in.
We just need to know what the

725
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,240
nutrient levels are.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

726
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,720
One of the other things that I
often forget but is in the

727
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,680
animal diet formulator or
sometimes are notes.

728
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,080
On ingredients, and I think
that's kind of a cool thing that

729
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,720
that you guys do that people
don't necessarily have to

730
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:11,760
remember everything all the
time.

731
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,640
So are there, are there
ingredients, maybe just a

732
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,440
handful that you're like, yeah,
you could use this, but I

733
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,240
wouldn't want you to use this?
In terms of nutrition or or data

734
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,720
or.
In terms in terms of like, yeah,

735
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:32,080
this food may fill in some gaps
for you, but like I wouldn't

736
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,920
really love for you to feed it
to your dog or cat.

737
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Well, yeah, what I mean without,
without throwing specific

738
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,680
products or brands under the
bus.

739
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:48,360
I, if I read an ingredient label
and it's all meat meals and

740
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,080
synthetic amino acids and a
whole line of synthetic

741
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,080
vitamins, minerals, very little
in the way of recognizable food.

742
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,960
Like if, if, if you were able to
see every ingredient laid out in

743
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,600
that food and not a single one
of them are something that you

744
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,720
would look at and be like, I
could pick that up and put that

745
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,200
in my mouth.
Like none of it on the label is

746
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,800
food.
Does it meet the essential

747
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,840
nutrient requirements?
Sure.

748
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,920
But is that something that I
would consider ideal?

749
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,880
No.
And the reason for that is the

750
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,240
reason I, I believe in fresh
food is that I think the the

751
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,240
matrix in which those nutrients
are delivered matters.

752
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,760
Yes, one of those foods like I
just described has the

753
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,320
appropriate levels of calcium
and magnesium and iodine and

754
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,080
vitamin E and tryptophan.
They're all in there, meets all

755
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,720
the criteria, checks all the
boxes.

756
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,360
But do those nutrients in
isolation behave the same way in

757
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,360
the body as they do if we're
giving them as amino acids

758
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:52,040
coming from meat and magnesium
coming from seeds or vegetables?

759
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,040
Yeah, I'm, I'm just not
convinced they do.

760
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,480
And I think there's a lot about
nutrition that we don't know

761
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,320
yet.
And sometimes we talk about the

762
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,680
dark matter of nutrition.
So like all those essential

763
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,120
nutrients we know that dogs and
cats need, that's great.

764
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,280
I'm willing to bet there are
other things they need that we

765
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,360
don't know about yet.
And if we're feeding foods, I

766
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,480
believe the chances that we'll
be delivering those other

767
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,040
mystery things that we don't
know they need yet are higher

768
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,480
than if we're feeding a food
that is just a compilation of

769
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,680
synthetic essential nutrients
that meets just those ones that

770
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,520
are listed in AFCO and nothing
else.

771
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,640
Yeah.
No, that makes total sense.

772
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,120
I mentioned earlier and I don't
want obviously you to like go

773
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,400
into people need to go to the
inside scoop to see what all of

774
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,600
that is about.
There was a whole series, I

775
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,000
think was it the second annual
one that they had done this past

776
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,080
year on.
They were rating basically a

777
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,800
bunch of different commercial
food brands.

778
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Course some brands didn't
participate.

779
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,120
Other brands were like, yes,
here, here's everything.

780
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,240
I want you to look at it, Tell
me what's going on, which was

781
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,160
really cool.
And I don't again want you to

782
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,400
like go through all of that.
People need to go to the inside

783
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,760
scoop to see that.
But I have a lightning round

784
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,360
that maybe people could kind of
get an idea of what your

785
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,360
experience was going through
that process that I would love

786
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,640
for you to just quickly or as
quickly as you would like,

787
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:20,840
answer just a few questions.
So what do you feel in a

788
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,920
commercial food?
What is the most overrated pet

789
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,440
food claim?
Overrated pet food claim.

790
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,920
Probably natural.
What does that mean?

791
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,160
No one knows?
Yeah, nobody knows.

792
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Nobody knows.
What is, in your opinion, the

793
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,440
most underrated whole food to
add to a commercial diet?

794
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,120
As part of the commercial
formulation like the company

795
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,840
would put it in or pet parent
adding it on top.

796
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,560
Oh, I like both.
Let's do both.

797
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,680
OK, OK, let's see.
So most nutritional bang for the

798
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,840
buck that a company might add.
Boy, I'm torn.

799
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,760
There's so many.
I'm going to, I'm going to focus

800
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,200
on protein as a major group and
I really like heart.

801
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Heart.
Sometimes people think of it as

802
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,640
an organ, which it is, but it's
muscle.

803
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,320
So I count it in my brain as
muscle meat and it's tends to be

804
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,880
very nutrient dense.
So I'm a big fan of Heart.

805
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,520
So if a pet parent just is
feeding whatever they're able to

806
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,320
feed at the time, but what do
you think as a Topper would have

807
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,080
the most thing for their buck?
If I have to pick one, I'm going

808
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,000
to go sardines.
And the reason I'm going to go

809
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,360
sardines is the EPA and DHA.
So even if if you're feeding a

810
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,360
say a kibble and maybe there is
salmon oil or some other EPADHA

811
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,480
source in that kibble, chances
are very good by the time you

812
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,720
get to the bottom of the bag
that that EPA and DHA is rancid.

813
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,120
And so then it's no longer
having the same benefits.

814
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,360
So if we can add fresh EPA and
DHA and I don't mean that you

815
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,000
have to go catch your own
sardines like you can use canned

816
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,760
sardines, but that's still going
to be fresher EPA and DHA.

817
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,400
If you open that can that
morning and put a sardine on top

818
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,000
of the bowl, that is going to be
much more biologically

819
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,840
beneficial to the dog or cat
than eating rancid salmon oil at

820
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,120
the the bottom of the kibble
lag.

821
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,600
OK.
So excluding equality omega-3,

822
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:16,920
because that's what you just
talked about.

823
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,880
What what it is one supplement
that you're like, yes, add this.

824
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,600
To the food, in terms of being
beneficial to the largest number

825
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,680
of animals, I would have to say
digestive enzymes, that the

826
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,920
ability to make digestive
enzymes decreases with age and

827
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,440
there are very few animals or
people who wouldn't derive some

828
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,200
benefit from digestive enzymes.
Is there a supplement that you

829
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,920
feel like a lot of people use
that you're like play stop?

830
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,640
Gosh, I don't know that it's
super common, but the one that

831
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,840
always makes me cringe a little
bit is just a vitamin mineral

832
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,880
supplement because oftentimes
it's added without knowledge of

833
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,080
what's in the base diet.
So then we can add end up with

834
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,880
actually nutrient excesses,
which can be toxic.

835
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,240
So that's my least favorite
thing to see is when people are

836
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,520
like, I'm, I'm feeding this and
then I'm giving this, this and

837
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,560
this, including this vitamin
mineral supplement.

838
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,880
Yeah, Well, and you, you kind of
touched on this a moment ago

839
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,280
with the bottom of the bag of
kibble, but I had Judah Vital on

840
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,360
the podcast and he did like a
Omega-3 for Dummies course on

841
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160
the podcast.
And he had it has it so drilled

842
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,880
into my brain that if you are,
if you are for me, if you're

843
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:35,080
supplementing an Omega-3 and it
is in a pump, that it's very

844
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,600
quickly going to go rancid.
And he's like, if you're feeding

845
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,360
a rancid fish oil, you'd do much
better to not feed a fish oil.

846
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,600
And I'm like, so that is such a
pet peeve of mine anymore.

847
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,600
Like please stop feeding rancid
fats.

848
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,000
Yeah, that's a good point.
Rancid fats are are worse than

849
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,480
no fats and fats are important.
Like I'm not.

850
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:57,960
I'm certainly not saying don't
feed fats.

851
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,560
I'm just saying don't feed
rancid fats.

852
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,400
Right.
Yeah, Yeah, OK.

853
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,800
What is your hill you're going
to die on when it comes to

854
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,520
nutrition for dogs and cats?
I mean, I think it's going to be

855
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,160
what I said earlier when I said
there needs to be a revolution.

856
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,040
We need to be providing adequate
nutrition to less active dogs

857
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,720
and cats, which is all of our
dogs and cats.

858
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,880
It really is, isn't.
It really is.

859
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,400
Yeah.
I, I'm also very have become

860
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,120
very passionate about in that
revolution.

861
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:35,080
I feel like in the animal diet
formulator, I think is in its

862
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,040
own way doing this or trying to
do this.

863
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,600
But I feel like we need
different nutrient requirements

864
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,160
for those companies that are
using synthetic premixes and

865
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,400
fresh whole food companies that
are like we're using none or

866
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,000
very minimal synthetic
additives.

867
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,680
That's to me is a totally
different ball game.

868
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,520
It is, unfortunately, we don't
have any data.

869
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,240
Like there's no, there's no
established, there's no studies

870
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:07,360
that say, OK, you need this much
magnesium if it's synthetic, but

871
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,840
you need this much of its
natural.

872
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,640
No one knows what those numbers
are.

873
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,560
Yeah, but that would be amazing
because, because like you, I bet

874
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,480
they're different numbers.
I can only all of the code like

875
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,240
you talked about all of the like
Co nutrients that are in real

876
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,080
food and things that we don't
even know about that we, I don't

877
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,680
know, maybe in 100 years we
might know about more things,

878
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,720
but we just don't.
We don't know it all because

879
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:36,320
we're not God.
Yeah, exactly.

880
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,400
Oh my goodness.
Is there anything I didn't touch

881
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,920
on that you're like, no, I want
to talk about this?

882
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,120
Gosh, you touched on everything.
That the one thing that I just

883
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,160
occurred to me, I didn't really
mention much.

884
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,240
I alluded to it when I said cats
and Constipation is a big

885
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:51,520
problem.
Fiber.

886
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,720
I just, I guess that's another
hill I'll die on.

887
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,240
Like fiber, super important and
everybody needs fiber.

888
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:00,400
Even our obligate carnivore
kitties, they still need fiber.

889
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,640
There's a lot of cats walking
around out there functionally

890
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,840
constipated all the time because
they don't get enough fiber.

891
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,560
Moisture is the other part of
that.

892
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,280
Those two things go hand in
hand, but fiber is a big one.

893
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,600
Yeah, No, I agree.
And I think I honestly don't

894
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,600
know what is or isn't in the ADF
in this regard because I just

895
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,960
have never used it this way.
But so many people feed like fur

896
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,400
and feathers and I don't know if
that's in the ADF as far as like

897
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,280
nutrients, but but that is
something that I think people,

898
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,360
the average pet parent may
overlook.

899
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,640
DIY raw feeders generally are
not going to overlook that, but

900
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,440
it is it can be a really
important component, especially

901
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,960
in an obligate carnivores diet.
For sure, for sure.

902
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,120
So there is not data for that in
ADF because we have not found

903
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,800
any.
If anyone has tested fur and

904
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,120
feathers for nutrients, we would
love to have that data and we

905
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,080
will totally put it in ADF.
And so that's an important part.

906
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,800
But the other piece of this is
so the fiber is important.

907
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,240
That's that's insoluble fiber
that you're talking about that

908
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:05,360
bulks up the stool and helps
with elimination.

909
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,960
Soluble fiber, fermentable fiber
is also incredibly important to

910
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,240
feed those gut microbes and so
that we're not getting from the

911
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,160
fur and the feathers.
So you can be feeding a whole

912
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,480
prey diet that is still
deficient in the right balance

913
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,120
of fibers.
So sometimes I'll hear people

914
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,720
say that like you'll kill your
dog or your cat if you're

915
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:29,240
feeding vegetables or fruits and
that's just not true.

916
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:33,200
The only way that we get some of
those beneficial polyphenols is

917
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,400
from plants.
So if we're not introducing

918
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,120
plants into the diet, we're
missing out on a whole host of

919
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,920
bio active polyphenols and other
things that have really powerful

920
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,640
effects in the body in terms of
preventing cancer or being

921
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,800
protective for organ function or
helping detox or just assisting

922
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,280
with basic metabolistic
functions.

923
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,240
We get those from plant
polyphenols.

924
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,960
And so plants are not the enemy,
but we can incorporate them

925
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,120
within the framework of what's
biological appropriate for that

926
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,000
cat or dog.
So I can make a recipe for a dog

927
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,920
and one for a cat that are very
similar, just that the Kitty

928
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,480
version is going to have smaller
amounts of all of those same

929
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,960
fruits and veggies and seeds
that I put into the dog recipe.

930
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:22,080
Now I know even like my cats
they if I bring some cat grass

931
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,800
out they're all over it.
They will go out if they go

932
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,160
outside, which my 1 cat has
decided.

933
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,160
He has figured out how to, he's
figured out how to get outside.

934
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,120
He goes, he goes for the grass.
He's like, yeah, I want some

935
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,640
grass.
My cat will hunt a roasted

936
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,200
asparagus off the the pan every
time.

937
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,000
And, you know, I mean, she gets
super excited about it too.

938
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,800
She'll she'll grab it and then
she'll run off with it in her

939
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,480
mouth and she makes that sound
like I have just come back from

940
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,640
a successful kill.
You know, she's like, and I'm

941
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,360
like, yeah, you got an
asparagus, didn't you?

942
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:55,640
And she'll that's.
Adorable.

943
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,520
That is adorable.
Oh my gosh.

944
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,440
Yeah.
My our new kitten, his name is

945
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,400
Camden.
He is in that learning stage.

946
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,920
He's learning a lot from the
other older cats around him, but

947
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:14,720
he is still very like you give
him a treat, especially like a

948
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:17,440
high value.
I don't know what in my house is

949
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,560
in high value.
Honestly.

950
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:23,880
I'm like between the, the duck
treats and the, the like wild

951
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,560
boar tree, like what in my house
is on high value.

952
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,200
But he is just like he's, he's
so tiny and ferocious and he

953
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,680
will get it and he growls and he
will swat at you and just like

954
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,040
he's like all in on the treats
on the floor.

955
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:44,520
Oh my gosh, buddy, we need to
teach you some manners for sure.

956
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,120
I love it.
I love it.

957
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,120
I love that growl that's like,
this is mine, I got on this.

958
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,480
It's adorable.
Anyway.

959
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Kittens are the best.
So I know, right, OK.

960
00:52:53,640 --> 00:53:00,880
So in general, the ADF could be
for anybody whether you are

961
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,720
formulating and you consult
right for commercial food

962
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,280
formulators.
And for individuals.

963
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,560
So a lot of what I do at ADF is
consultation for individuals and

964
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,480
for veterinarians and for
commercial companies, yeah.

965
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,720
That's amazing, but really it's
for just about anybody, from a

966
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:25,320
pet parent just wanting to feed
their own individual pet all the

967
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,280
way up through a company trying
to feed a population exactly of

968
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,560
animals.
That's amazing.

969
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,440
I love it.
So people can go to

970
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,320
animaldietformulator.com.
That's it.

971
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,800
Check it out.
Yeah, yeah.

972
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,520
Is there anything else that you
want to plug?

973
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,480
Do you have like I know you said
you have the CIBT podcast you do

974
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:46,720
and.
Yeah.

975
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,520
So, yeah, so CIBT, the original
podcast there is the integrative

976
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,720
veterinarian and Doctor Neil
Civila hosts that and he

977
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,960
interviews veterinarians who do
anything in the integrative

978
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,760
animal health space.
And my podcast is kind of the

979
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,320
spin off of that and it's called
the Integrative Animal Health

980
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,920
Collective.
So I'm interviewing not

981
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,280
veterinarians, but anyone else
in the animal health world who's

982
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,400
doing something in the
integrative space.

983
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,560
So it's semi regular
approximately it's released

984
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,000
approximately 1 to 2 * a month.
And it's we're fairly new.

985
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,000
I think we have maybe 10
episodes so far.

986
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,760
So more to come.
Yay.

987
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,800
Well, I appreciate everything
you do and all of the education

988
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,440
that you have out there,
everything you participate in

989
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,640
because this is a, it's
important Again, I, I go through

990
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,560
these phases of like, I'm
pulling my hair out.

991
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,200
This is so complicated and like
this is easy so.

992
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:49,680
Me too girl, me too.
I definitely can find myself

993
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,040
getting in the weeds in the in
the animal diet formulator, but

994
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:56,520
I appreciate it nonetheless.
So thank you so much for being

995
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,440
here.
I can't wait to to see you in

996
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,720
person again and just excited
for everything you have going

997
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:04,840
on.
Thank you so much for having me

998
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,360
and thank you for everything
you're doing.

999
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,600
And yeah, looking forward to
seeing you again.

1000
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,240
Awesome.
Well, thank you for being here,

1001
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:13,080
Doctor Wrecker, everybody
listening.

1002
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,480
Thank you for being here for
this conversation.

1003
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,400
I just want to say how much I
appreciate you, especially this

1004
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,600
year has been a tough one.
But yeah, we're going to keep

1005
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,320
going.
We're going to keep doing all

1006
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,680
the things with all the
incredible guests coming up

1007
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,960
throughout the rest of the year.
And give your pets some extra

1008
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,840
love from me and from Doctor
Susan Wrecker this week.

1009
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:34,880
I'll talk to you next week.