241. How the Pet Industry Really Works - from a 30 year insider

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Hey there, it's Jess.
If you're new here, I'm a

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certified professional canine
nutritionist, raw nutrition

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00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,720
certified for dogs and cats, a
holistic pet health coach, the

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00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,040
founder of Wild Wellness Pet,
and the host of the Pet

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Parenting Reset podcast that
you're listening to right now,

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where every pet deserves the
absolute best and every pet

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parent is welcome.
Learn from the best holistic and

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integrative experts in
veterinary medicine and

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nutrition every Tuesday right
here on this podcast.

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Or get individualized help with
your pet through one-on-one

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consultations and take a deep
dive into the root cause with

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the Wild Wellness Bioenergetics
at Home testing kit.

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It's time to rethink how we
raise our pets.

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A reset to naturally healthy
dogs and cats.

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If you've been feeling like
there has to be something more,

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something better, a better way
to raise healthier pets, welcome

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to the pet parenting reset.
Welcome back pet parent.

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Today's episode is you guessed
it, we're talking about pet food

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again.
I have a guest today who has

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been a pet industry strategist,
product developer, He's a

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podcast host.
He has over 3 decades of hands

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on experience in pet nutrition,
manufacturing, distribution,

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regulatory compliance, all of
the things that we talk about

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all the time.
But what's really interesting to

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me is that he also also
represents brands in the UK and

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the European Union as well as
the United States.

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So he has a pretty big world
view of what's going on with the

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pet industry at large.
So Clayton Payne, thank you so

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much for being here with us on
the Pet Parenting Reset.

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How are you doing?
Fantastic.

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Thanks for having me on.
Really appreciate it.

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Yeah.
So I'm just really, really

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interested in kind of your view
of pet food in general, but the

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pet industry at large.
Because I, you know, was I, when

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I, we finally connected, some
mutual friends of ours were

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like, no, you really need to
talk to him.

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And I was like, OK, what's it
doing?

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Yeah.
I mean, look, I think, I think

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like being around as long as I
have.

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So like I've been doing this
like professionally since I was

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18, but also I, I grew up in a
pet store.

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I've seen the industry evolve.
I've worked on multiple

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continents with, with the, with
different companies, but I've

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worked in manufacturing, I've
worked in distribution,

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marketing, new product
development.

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And look, my, my thing is, is
that I've actually, you get a

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little bit cynical, I guess,
because I always say to people

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like pet food is 90% marketing,
10% substance most of the time.

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And I'm always pointing out
claims to people I know and

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going, you know, and this sort
of stuff.

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So, and look, it's one of those
things that I feel like, and

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especially, especially for the
people who really care, like,

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you know, we really want to call
them pet parent 2.0 or like, you

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know, let's say the high
educated crowd or whatever you

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want to call them.
I feel like knowing the right

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questions is half the battle.
Because I feel like there's

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there's a little bit of like a
disconnect where people talk

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about certain things all the
time and they they highlight

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certain parts of the industry
which they see as problematic.

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But then there's other things
which completely dip under the

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radar and also marketing claims
that are just what they are.

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They're just marketing sort of
fluff and they might be true,

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but they're they're kind of
irrelevant to the whole whole

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thing.
So I just for me, I I just like,

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I do like talking about it.
I mean, look, as you know, I

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have my own podcast, but I kind
of let other people do the

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talking on my own podcast.
So I kind of, I don't really get

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too out of my pram.
So it that's why it's kind of

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interesting to come on and chat
with you, to be honest, because

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I'm more like in the background
moaning and like grumbling and

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going, well, you know, Yeah.
So.

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Yeah, yeah.
Well, those are the best

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episodes, right?
When like I for me as a host, if

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I'm sitting back and listening
most of the time, like those are

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the best podcasts, the ones
where I'm having to fill in so

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much information.
I'm like, this is great.

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I love talking.
I I love talking, but it's not

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the point.
It's just not the point.

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So.
OK, one of the things, well, you

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said so many things in there and
I have so many questions, but

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one of the things that I do want
to say to kind of jump start

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this is I saw this the other day
on a content creator that I

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follow on TikTok.
He said that he primarily, like,

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he grew up in the UK, That's
where he lives.

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And he has come to the States a
number of times as a tourist.

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And this was the first time he
came to the States to like, live

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alongside somebody.
And he was just like, I expect

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to be marketed to constantly
when I'm here as a tourist, when

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I'm in New York City, when I'm
in Las Vegas, when I'm doing the

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things.
But he's like just living my

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everyday life.
I am astonished at every breath

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you take.
Somebody is marketing something

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to you in the United States.
And I'm curious because you are

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all over the place, do you see
it that way as well?

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Is it just as bad where you are
or the the markets you're you're

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in in the UK and the EU?
Like how do you do you see the

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US being different in any way?
So let me talk about this from

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an industry, pet industry
perspective, OK?

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Just because I think it's
probably more relevant, I think

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like yes, first of all, to your
question, but I'll tell you why

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the US is a massive pay to play
market like so if you are a

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small band and why, why
innovation gets through in

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Europe more than it gets through
in America is because in the UK

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you can get traction on your
products without having a stack

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of money in the bank.
And the US is just such an

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expensive market to operate in,
like geographically, like

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logistically and just
competitively, like the big

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companies have got so much money
here.

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And look, you know, everyone's
addicted to Amazon, they're

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addicted to chewy.com, etcetera.
And they're all pay to play

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environments and heavily.
So if I'm launching a brand in

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the US on Amazon and they want
decent traction, I say, look, we

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need the marketing budget for
Amazon alone of around $10,000 a

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month to get proper traction.
In the UK.

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You can do that with a 10th of
that money.

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And so it takes things from a
realm of like you need to have

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$120,000 in your account to
10,000.

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And look, $10,000 is in the
realms of most sort of

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entrepreneurial young business
people, 120,000, that's the

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price of a house, you know, and
that, and that's like seed money

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that's just to get it going.
That's without the logistics

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costs, you know, and like no
guarantee of success.

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And so the marketing here is
just far stronger in the US is

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far stronger because you know,
the nature of the of the

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environment is just so pay to
play.

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So you have to be clever with
your marketing.

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You have to be consistent and
you have to put loads of it,

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loads of it in because again,
the American market's so

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important.
And I think when you then go to,

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let's say, smaller markets, you
don't get pummelled in the same

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way.
So if like I grew up in Ireland

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and Ireland, no one cares about
Ireland.

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It's like, it's like 5 million
people living on a rock at the

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edge of the Atlantic.
You know, it's it's not like an

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exciting market for for
companies, not like the USI

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mean, if you've got 5 million
people, you know, you could have

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that in a small state, you know,
and, and one that's

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interconnected with everything
else.

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So it, it's, it is a very market
heavy environment, but again,

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it's because it has to be for
businesses and it's, it's

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uncomfortable, it's an
uncomfortable truth.

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And it it means that everybody's
working overtime to try and get

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get some kind of traction.
What?

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How does that translate to like
the average pet parent just

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trying to raise their pet and
buy them decent quality

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products, be a good pet?
Like how does that translate do

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you think?
So again, because it's a money

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driven environment, it's not a
quality driven environment

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unfortunately and it's a margin
driven environment because

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again, if you're spending a lot
of money on marketing the the

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cost, the the price of the
product at the beginning stage

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has to be lower.
So my, like, me and my brother,

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we always used to argue growing
up and it was like, let's say 22

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brands of dog food and you're
like, they're the same price,

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but this one's rubbish.
Why is this one rubbish?

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And yeah, we sell more of this.
And it was like, well, OK, you

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know, if, if the cost of a bag
of dog food is, let's say

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argument's sake, $100, you know,
there's margins.

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The margins for everyone may,
may be similar, but the cost of

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the product needs to suffer
because the, you know, the

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marketing money needs to be
there to promote it because that

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then becomes part of the cost of
the product.

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So for pet parents, it means
that you've got to work so much

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harder in the US market to find
something that is good.

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That and there's other, yeah, we
can go into transparency issues

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as we go along.
But then that's when you get

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like marketing claims which are
nonsense transparency issues in

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terms of ingredients, how things
are put together, like what is

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good and what isn't good is
really hard.

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And look, people always say to
me like, let's say from the UK

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and the EU, like when they look
at American products and go, oh,

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this is one of the top selling
products in the US and they're

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like, it's rubbish, it's
rubbish.

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It sells for a lot of money.
And you're like, yeah, but have

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you got $50,000 a month to put
in advertising on ecommerce

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platforms to push your product
to the to the fore?

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Probably not, because your
product is actually higher in

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quality.
And then the price point once

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you've put that on is going to
be much, much higher than

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competition.
Whereas you're trying to sell at

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the same price as an inferior
product.

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But it's a pay to play
environment.

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So pet parents, if they really
are educated on what they've got

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to work, so much harder to find
the right product.

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So you mentioned a couple of
times about marketing claims.

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Can you dive into that a little
bit?

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What what you are referring to
when you're like these marketing

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claims are rubbish.
OK, so I know, like when we

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spoke on the phone before, yeah,
you mentioned to me like human,

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human ingredients.
Yeah, human food.

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Like maybe the human ingredients
factory.

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Yeah, people love that here.
Yeah.

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Do you know what it means?
Nothing.

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It means nothing.
It's like the most irrelevant

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thing going because again, if
you look at human food and pet

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food #1 let's say you have,
let's say, meat, for example,

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it's all slower than the same
warehouse, right?

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And then there's a number of
different procedural things

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which can happen to turn
something from human food to pet

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food exclusively.
And that can be separation at

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the point of slaw or it can be
separation like literally just

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from the cold store it's being
kept in to, to where it gets

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shipped to.
And a lot of it's to do with

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licensing.
So again, if you've got like a,

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a licensed food factory, the FDA
will regulate in the USA human

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food factory and A and A and a
feed factory.

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The regulations for me are the
same, same temperature stories,

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same hygiene requirements, same
bacterial load requirements.

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It's just what's that building
regulated for?

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So for the actual consumer, it
makes no difference.

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It's, it's a, it's just a
gimmicky claim.

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Like it, it's human food
ingredients.

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Because I think like when you
say it was like, well, is it,

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you know, we should be feeding
more off cuts and that sort of

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stuff to our dogs or stuff we
wouldn't necessarily eat.

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And actually like that
particular claim doesn't

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actually influence that at all.
I think something can be human

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food, organic pasture, raised,
regeneratively farmed,

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mechanically deboned meat and be
utter rubbish for your pet like

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because like, and then it could
be used like it could be like

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put like used with emulsifiers
like carrageenan or who are gum

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or locust bean.
So then turn it into a loaf.

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00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,120
And it's still all of those
things.

224
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,520
It's still human food
ingredients, it's still organic,

225
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,160
it's still pasteurized.
So one is process and the other

226
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,560
one is the genesis of it, or the
the origin story, the paperwork

227
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,880
and the yeah, the backups that
it was, if that makes sense.

228
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,720
And then one is the actual
product.

229
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,360
Because you're buying all of
these things doesn't mean you're

230
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,400
getting primuscle meat.
It doesn't mean you're getting,

231
00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,400
you know, quality processing.
Like you can literally be

232
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,000
getting of meat that's been
scraped off the bone, you know,

233
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,160
or gizzards or connective
tissues or trim or all of these

234
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,520
things which are nutritionally
completely inferior.

235
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,920
And again, on the packaging, all
of those products I've just

236
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,080
mentioned will can all be
claimed as freshly prepared

237
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,080
whatever.
So if it's if it's beef, all of

238
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,000
these things can be freshly
prepared beef.

239
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,440
In terms of pet food packaging,
not true.

240
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,520
In terms of human food
packaging, then pet food

241
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,760
packaging, 100% the only thing
that has you have as a variance

242
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,840
is mechanically rendered mate.
And again, like there's a

243
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,400
there's an understanding loss
between people understand the

244
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400
difference between mechanically
rendered, mechanically deboned

245
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,120
like muscle, mate, trim,
connective tissue and what all

246
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,160
of those things meet number one,
in terms of how good they are

247
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,680
for your pet, what that actually
means in terms of digestibility,

248
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,120
in terms of oxidation and in
terms of amino acids.

249
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,000
But then yeah, it's there's a
but all of these things sound

250
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,640
the same.
Mechanically rendered meat is

251
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,440
the is the classic meat and
animal derivatives, which

252
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,520
everybody knows is a bad thing,
but mechanically deep boned,

253
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,120
that's a different process.
And that can that can qualify as

254
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,800
meat, even though, so it the way
I sort of explain it is like a

255
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,760
mechanically rendered is the
stuff like you've seen like the

256
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,360
strawberry milkshake style
chicken coming out of the out of

257
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,840
the pipes, right?
Everyone's saying that.

258
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,200
So that's your mechanically
rendered meat.

259
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,840
So that's high pressure, like
everything put in meat bone,

260
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,840
like all the like what what was
left of the car was put in

261
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,880
crushed and sent through and it
goes pink because it's high in

262
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,680
bone content.
So I think it's the calcium if

263
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:59,760
the calcium is is always over
.15% because even though they

264
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,560
extract the bone, there's still
a high level of bone in it.

265
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,760
That dash like your Frankfurt on
me.

266
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,920
Now that can be human grade.
Yeah, that pink marsh can be

267
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,440
human grade because again, we
Frankfurt as that's human food.

268
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,520
We don't think for a second,
well, it's human food must be

269
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,040
good, right?
And then you have the

270
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,800
mechanically deboned and that's
more your cheese, but like your

271
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,640
burger meat or your chicken
Nuggets.

272
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,560
And then you have your muscle
knee.

273
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,640
And then you also have things
like trim, which again trim and

274
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680
it's fine to have some trim like
it's fine to have some of this

275
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,880
connective tissue, but
connective tissue has no natural

276
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,600
is very low in in tryptophan,
very low in lysine, like very

277
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,200
poor amino acids.
It's all high, high fat.

278
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,960
And again, it all flies under
the radar in terms of what we

279
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,800
actually get when we when we get
our, our dog's food.

280
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,760
And again, look, there's a lot
of raw food food companies out

281
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:06,599
there claiming to be 100% beef
or 100% this or 80801010 or 6025

282
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,440
ten or whatever they're going
for.

283
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,200
But they're using high levels of
connective tissue, high levels

284
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,400
of mechanically deep butter
meat, like so very, very subpar.

285
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,000
And look, you can tell it just
by looking at it.

286
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200
You know, if you've ever picked
up a raw dog food and it looks

287
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,480
like a putty, you know, kind of
it's kind of like a gunge.

288
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,640
That means there's no connect,
there's no connective, there's

289
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,960
no structurally integral meat in
that, in that in that food.

290
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,200
So you're talking about very low
quality.

291
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,560
But again, you can use words
like organic, you know, organic

292
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,760
grass fed, all these different
human grade, blah blah blah.

293
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,520
And none of those claims are
wrong.

294
00:17:52,560 --> 00:18:00,280
They're just meaningless.
So it OK there are you said

295
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,960
earlier, there are so many
questions that a pet parent is

296
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,960
going to have to ask to be able
to figure out like what they're

297
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,040
actually feeding their pet or to
qualify a new pet food, if

298
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,000
they're going to look for a pet
food or what are some of those

299
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,040
questions that you wish pet
parents were asking?

300
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,960
So first of all, I'd like to see
industry do it not not not have

301
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,760
to rely on pet parents to do it
because I think that this is

302
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,800
something that flies too much
under the radar for my liking.

303
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:44,080
But if you're going to ask, you
should say things like what's

304
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,280
the, what's the level of like in
this?

305
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520
Let's say you're using a raw
food, say what's, what's the

306
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,160
collagen meat or hydroxyproline
levels in this food?

307
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,400
What is the fat content compared
to the the protein?

308
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,160
Because this will give you a
real indication like the

309
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,920
hydroxyproline amount.
So hydroxyproline basically

310
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,160
connective tissues about 13 1/2%
of hydroxyproline and it will

311
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,240
give you an idea of the quality
of meat that's in that food.

312
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,600
So if you, if it's a very high
hydroxy praline level, like I

313
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,560
think normal meat is like 2 to
3%, but like connective tissue

314
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,280
is around 13%.
If you've got a high level on

315
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,840
that, you will basically know
that you're getting a raw food,

316
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:39,160
which is low quality.
But I would like to say to them,

317
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,520
what cuts of meat to use because
again, freshly prepared beef,

318
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,480
that's not a cut.
You wouldn't go into a

319
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,920
supermarket and say, yeah, pick
up some hamburger meat and say,

320
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,040
ah, this is the finest beef they
have in the in the supermarket.

321
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,200
Ask them what what is actually
in this?

322
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,000
Because again, look, everything
is price dependent.

323
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,840
If you're if you're paying low
money for something, you can

324
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,520
pretty much guarantee you're
getting.

325
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,160
Yeah, not not the best quality
meat, but when people are paying

326
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,040
high amounts of money per heated
per pound for products, that's

327
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,960
when they should be asking what
is the actual trim to trim and

328
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,360
deboned meat ratio to like
muscle meat.

329
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,800
Because again, these things
matter because again, it's it's

330
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,960
how it digests.
I mean, you know, yourself, if

331
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,040
you were to eat a pound of steak
or a hamburger, which weighed a

332
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,560
pound, it's going to react very
differently in your system.

333
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,960
It's going to take a lot longer
to digest and will be a lot more

334
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,280
satiating the steak than than
the hamburger.

335
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,000
It's going to have a lot less
fat.

336
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,640
So again, asking these
questions, you're saying beef,

337
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,280
but what does beef actually
mean?

338
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,680
Because again, it's like, I
don't think there's when when we

339
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,440
look at humans who we ask these
questions all the time.

340
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,760
But I feel like we have a blind
spot in the pet industry for

341
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,200
this, of actually really
questioning what these things

342
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,680
really mean.
Well, it, it's built in because

343
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,960
the blind spot, because I, I've
started going to AFCO meetings

344
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,240
and it's, it's intentional.
Like they don't want people to

345
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,440
know what's in the food.
Not 100% like again, because

346
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,560
look, it's margin.
Look, the price of mechanically

347
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,560
rendered meat is half the price
of mechanically boned and

348
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,720
mechanically debone meat and
trim is less than half the price

349
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,120
of full muscle meat.
So again, it's you know, and

350
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,800
look, I'm not saying that there
isn't use cases for it or that

351
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,760
it's all evil.
I'm not saying that at all

352
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,640
because again, there is use
cases for it.

353
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,640
And there's nothing wrong with a
company saying we use, yeah, 40%

354
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,160
muscle meat, 40%, let's say
connective tissue based meat.

355
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,160
Like that's fine.
I've got no issue with that.

356
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,720
It's just the transparency that
bothers me, to be honest.

357
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,880
And look, AFCO and they're just
number crunchers.

358
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,800
Like it's it's all number
crunching.

359
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,240
It's like, OK, average dog this
size needs this.

360
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,600
What's the right sort of amount
we need to give them in terms

361
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,440
of, you know, this, this and
this?

362
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,120
I mean, look, look at the
calcium thing.

363
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:22,400
I mean, calcium can be bone
matrix or it can be chunk.

364
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,240
Calcium carbonate is often used
in dog food and that's chalk.

365
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,480
You wouldn't feed yourself chalk
for your calcium.

366
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,040
But again, it still takes the
these theoretical numbers that

367
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,160
are in there, you know?
So when you say that you would

368
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,880
prefer to see the industry
actually be the one answering

369
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,960
these questions, I mean I
completely agree with you.

370
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,520
Do you see a way that that can
happen or that that will happen?

371
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,360
I, I think it's by pet parents
asking the right questions and

372
00:22:54,360 --> 00:23:01,080
pressuring things I think.
And again, look, I think the

373
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,760
side of the industry this really
effects in, in reality is the

374
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,920
premium end and the premium end
people are the more inquisitive.

375
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,280
They are the ones who are
looking to do the best possible

376
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,080
job.
They're, you know, best thing by

377
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200
their pets.
So actually asking these

378
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,000
questions is actually really
important.

379
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,400
And, but, and again, and like, I
think just looking beyond the

380
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,360
marketing claims, because again,
you know, and also when you use

381
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,920
a lot of these marketing claims,
seeing it as a little bit of a

382
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,800
red flag as well that you should
like, if you're seeing, you

383
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,120
know, human ingredients, like,
no, that is nonsense.

384
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,800
And it is a little bit of a red
flag because you're really, they

385
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840
know what the difference is
between human ingredients and

386
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,240
pet food ingredients are because
they're the ones filling it.

387
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,160
They're the ones doing the duty
of care in the, in the, in the

388
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,000
distribution.
They're the ones who understand

389
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,560
where it's coming from.
They're the one who understand

390
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,280
what that actually means.
And if you're using that as a

391
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,040
market and claim, there's
something vaguely dishonest

392
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,440
about that already, to be
honest, in my opinion.

393
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,960
So the yeah, the marketing
claims trying to get past it, I

394
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,160
think for the average pet parent
it is difficult here in the

395
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,320
States and that's kind of why I
LED with marketing because

396
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:27,200
that's that's always I think
we're intentionally set up to

397
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,400
not have the bandwidth to ask
the questions and.

398
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,160
I think also we're intentionally
drawn down quite a humanistic

399
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,080
role as well where we they talk
about.

400
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,960
But I we did, there was market
research done in the UK

401
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:50,840
supermarkets as to what 3 words
consumers saw as being the most

402
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,920
important on dog food and it was
natural, wholesome and tasty.

403
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,280
All of which mean nothing.
They literally mean nothing.

404
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,200
They're meaningless words.
And yet those were the trigger

405
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000
words.
So if you had natural, tasty,

406
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,920
wholesome chicken recipe, that
would be far more of a, a drawer

407
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,680
to people than, you know,
biologically appropriate or, you

408
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,040
know, you know, like, and it was
funny actually, because just on

409
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,360
the kibble market, there was a,
there was a thing where it was

410
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,240
like there was companies who
were doing the whole, we used

411
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,760
60% meat, we used 65% meat, we
used 55% meat.

412
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520
And the buyer for a grocery was
talking to me about and he said,

413
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,600
he said, like, these companies
don't understand, like no one

414
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,160
wants this information.
Like if I said to you, this

415
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,840
chicken nugget was 65% meat,
you'd, you'd freak out, wouldn't

416
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,160
you?
So when pet parents are seeing

417
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,840
65% meat, they're kind of
expecting at least that.

418
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,240
And it's sort of like one of
those claims.

419
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,640
They're like, what the hell?
You know, it can actually be a

420
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,960
negative to people.
Whereas if you don't talk about

421
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,920
it and you just say chicken
recipe, natural, wholesome,

422
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:08,680
tasty, that's far more like,
yeah, it's far more convincing

423
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,160
for the for the for the pet
parent than actually like that

424
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,080
kind of transparency.
But that's why I say that the

425
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,240
the messaging has to be for the
premium that parent 2.0 top, top

426
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,960
level high information customer.
Because I think when you

427
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,640
actually get into the lower,
lower information, the actual

428
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,440
information people are looking
for is quite, you'd be quite

429
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,200
distressed at how how easily
marketed to people are.

430
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,560
Yeah, it it is.
I'm not going to lie.

431
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,480
Like I have to remind myself a
lot.

432
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,840
I will walk into a store.
I actually around this time last

433
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,920
year, I walked into a Walmart
for the first time and I don't

434
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,560
know how many years.
I just, I'm just not a Walmart

435
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:06,200
shopper and I passed by the pet
aisles, which I was not happy

436
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,080
about.
Like I was not happy about what

437
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,240
I saw there.
I'm always very, very disturbed,

438
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960
no matter even in grocery stores
because I this happened in

439
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,280
grocery stores too in the USI
don't know about in other

440
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,160
countries, but the pet food is
always right next to the

441
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,160
cleaning supplies.
I don't know what this is, but

442
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,400
it's like aisles of cleaning
supplies, aisles of pet food are

443
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,040
always right together.
And so I can't even I'm a very

444
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,480
sensitive person.
I all I smell are the cleaning

445
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,320
supplies.
When I'm in the pet tiles,

446
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,800
that's all I'm smelling.
And anyway, that's a side note

447
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,720
that just I don't know what that
strategy is here in.

448
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,640
The US, it's the same here
actually.

449
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,920
Well, I never really thought
about it to be honest, but it's

450
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,720
the same.
Here and I'm like, to me, I'm

451
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,600
looking at this like, yeah, you
put the chemicals next to the

452
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,480
chemicals.
I get it right, but.

453
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Yeah.
But but the the truth is as well

454
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,520
is that the humanistic trend, it
works on every level as well.

455
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,720
So like, while we're talking
about, you go into the

456
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,120
supermarket and there's like a
bacon rasher which is made of

457
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:14,200
God knows what, like in like
some packaging which is full of

458
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,840
full of chemicals and God knows
what.

459
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800
On the one hand, you have that,
that humanisation.

460
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,840
But then on the top end, like I
say, you have these human food

461
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,480
ingredients, you know, pasture
aid, like, you know, like free

462
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,520
range, these sorts of like
claims that again, like they're

463
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960
not, they're not wrong, but
they're not like the most

464
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,960
important thing you should be
using when deciding.

465
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,240
But they're the things that
resonate the hardest.

466
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,800
Because again, if you're if
you're told all of those things

467
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,080
just in singularity, you don't
have to address the actual cuts

468
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,840
of meat that are in there, the
processing technique, the kill

469
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,720
steps, you know, like, you know,
any kind of emulsifiers they

470
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,160
might have used to put on them.
Like because you're already

471
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,040
you're winning on the bit that
actually, you know, if I say to

472
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:09,480
you this, this yeah, this meat
has been like finely ground so

473
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,960
that it oxidizes quickly or like
chopped.

474
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,720
So like more likely.
So there's more cell structure.

475
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,000
So it there's better, you know,
there's better release that

476
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,960
digests better.
And you know, there's a there's

477
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,440
a lot more amino acids that will
can come out, etcetera,

478
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,560
etcetera.
That's not exciting for a

479
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,880
consumer, even even a highly
like aware one.

480
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,040
But if I say to them it's
organic, grass fed human food,

481
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,360
blah, blah, blah, this sounds
way more premium.

482
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,600
And again, I think it's just
trying to get people to rewrite

483
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,960
the narrative and actually try
and fit their human head on.

484
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,960
Because again, the the worst
human food wouldn't wash in the

485
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,000
supermarket.
You wouldn't walk around and go

486
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,440
pick up some like ground beef
and go, oh, like this is great.

487
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,720
This is human food.
Do you know what I mean?

488
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,080
This, this wouldn't end.
So you'd be looking at the cuts

489
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,840
of meat, you'd be looking at the
fat content.

490
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,480
You'd be looking at lots of
other things that don't involve

491
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,320
these, like silly claims, to be
honest.

492
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,720
So again, it's just trying to
get people's heads into, out of

493
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,720
a, a market's dream and eat more
into the into the real world.

494
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,720
Yeah.
It actually would be nice to be

495
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,920
able to go into a grocery store
and have things labeled more

496
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,080
appropriately like an apple be
labeled an apple and A and an

497
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,320
apple that has that isn't
organic.

498
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,600
That was maybe like they use
pesticides on to be labeled like

499
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,040
apple plus pesticides or
something like that.

500
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,240
Like that would be really really
nice, but I don't.

501
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,280
Think that?
Do you know what I've always

502
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,840
wanted?
Like again, look, one of my like

503
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,120
annoyance words is the word
sustainable?

504
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,040
Like that's a word that annoys
the hell out of me because it's

505
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,000
one of those really broad words
that means nothing.

506
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,840
Again, I'd like to see like a
red light to green light system

507
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,040
on sustainability because like
is it?

508
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,080
Because again, what does
sustainable mean?

509
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,920
Does it mean?
What does it?

510
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960
Mean.
Are we saving the planet or are

511
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,640
we just like putting, putting
our our plastic bottles in like

512
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,640
a different bin and hoping it
goes to the right recycling

513
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,320
center?
I mean, do you know what I mean?

514
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,800
There's there's a whole thing of
sustainability and yet like

515
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,120
people just jump on the
sustainability about because

516
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,480
again, it, it, it can as a
second or third buying decision

517
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,560
for people.
It kind of it has like little

518
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,800
things that go off and people
go, oh, it's sustainable.

519
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,320
That's also great because I like
sustainability.

520
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,080
I mean, we all like
sustainability.

521
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,240
I don't think anybody's out
there going, I hate

522
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,680
sustainability.
I'd like to see the planet, you

523
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,400
know, gradually decay.
But at the same time, it's

524
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,720
become a marketing claim.
It's become an, a meaningless

525
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,160
like platitude that nobody
really understands anymore.

526
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,880
So it's like, do you know what I
mean?

527
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,400
I do, yeah, I do.
It doesn't.

528
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,280
It doesn't mean anything.
It's very objective to the

529
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,960
company putting out the product
what sustainability means to

530
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,360
them.
Yeah, Yeah.

531
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,120
It's a bit like, I think there
was a, a pet food company that

532
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:23,240
moves from plastic tubs.
It was like a like a loaf type

533
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,000
product and they went from
plastic tubs into like Tetra

534
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,520
packs.
And they said that we've done

535
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,880
this for sustainability reasons.
These are much more sustainable.

536
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,760
But again, you would have to
have broke down each of the

537
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,080
packs individually, removing
each layer and putting them in

538
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,080
different bins to get that
sustainability difference.

539
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040
And, and so it's like, is it
more sustainable?

540
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,840
I guess if like .1% of people do
that, then yeah, it's more

541
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,440
sustainable.
But in reality, it's kind of

542
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,200
negligible.
But it was a big claim for them.

543
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,200
So yeah, like, that's what I
mean.

544
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,840
I think like there's a we, we
need to be way more skeptical of

545
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,760
marketing claims and actually
look more intensely at end

546
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:19,200
product to be honest.
So one of the things that I was

547
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,960
interested in because I, I get
to the point where, you know,

548
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,360
people are just so discouraged
when they, when they hear a

549
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,400
podcast like this, right?
They're so discouraged.

550
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,880
They're like, it's impossible.
What am I supposed to do?

551
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,120
You know, I'm raising 3 kids.
I've got, you know, two dogs and

552
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,480
a cat and I'm working full time
and, you know, all the things

553
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000
I'm trying to manage a household
like how am I supposed to do all

554
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,080
of this?
And I get that because life is

555
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:53,400
hard and we have over the
decades, we've just outsourced

556
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400
so much of our power to
corporations and to governments

557
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,720
and to all the things that we no
longer have the bandwidth to

558
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,280
manage it.
And one of the things that

559
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,280
people wind up doing is looking
for either, you know, these

560
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:14,120
small companies that are doing
small batch foods or, or making

561
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,400
it themselves and which, you
know, if, if, if they're doing

562
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,000
it, doing a good job and
rotating and doing all like

563
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,679
that.
There's something to be said

564
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,800
about that because you can, you
can control it a little bit

565
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,280
better.
But one of the things that I

566
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,400
have heard you say is that small
batch isn't what we think it is

567
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,480
either.
And I'm curious to hear your

568
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,840
thoughts on that.
And I'm not saying the company,

569
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,880
I'm talking about the idea like
the.

570
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,320
The idea of small batch, right?
And like, so again, I think

571
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,040
there's like, again, there's an
inherent belief that that people

572
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,280
think if it's homemade, if it's
small batch, it's going to be

573
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,520
better, right?
But again, just to give you like

574
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,200
a human food example, like the
the sprinter, Usain Bolt, like

575
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,360
world champion, like sprinter in
the days leading up to him, like

576
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000
running, he would always eat
McDonald's chicken Nuggets.

577
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,920
And he wasn't eating them
because they were quality.

578
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,320
He was eating them because he
could understand the safety

579
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,680
standards that are involved
because, you know, the like

580
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,200
McDonald's, OK, it's crap.
You know, it doesn't taste

581
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,600
great, but it's also very, very
safe.

582
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,840
And I think the problem is, is
that this isn't a blanket

583
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,040
everybody's small batch because
there are people who do great

584
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,720
jobs out there.
But just the idea of a small

585
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:45,360
batch being inherently good is a
fallacy.

586
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,880
And there's a lot of things that
can go wrong with small batch

587
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,680
because again, you know, if you
were to eat dinner at a

588
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,400
different one of your neighbors
every night, you know, just

589
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,960
indiscriminately you, you can't
tell me that's going to be

590
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,280
better than eating in a chain
restaurant every night.

591
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,880
Because again, you're more
likely to get an upset stomach

592
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,120
to have something wrong with the
food.

593
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,480
Because again, just inherently
people when they cook

594
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,680
themselves, they're not using
safety protocols.

595
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,400
They're not necessarily storing
like the, the, the products

596
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,800
which are going into this at the
right temperatures and that sort

597
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,640
of stuff.
So again, it's, I give it like,

598
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,680
so let me give an example.
Something like bone broth is a

599
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,560
great example of where small
batch can go wrong.

600
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,480
So if you are making bone broth,
I don't know if you've ever

601
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,080
heard people complaining about
shouldn't give bone broth

602
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,120
because of histamine.
OK, if you're giving a small

603
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,000
batch bone broth, like say if
you're making it yourself rather

604
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,160
than let's say buying from a
companies in the UK, we have a

605
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,120
company called Carly which they
make, they make bone broth

606
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,840
really high quality, but it's
all made in a a human grade

607
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,280
factory where it's everything is
made aseptically so there's no

608
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,400
bacteria.
The histamine on the bone broth

609
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,280
comes from poorly handled bones
developing bacteria then being

610
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,800
slow cooked at 90° / a period of
time.

611
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,160
They, they, that bacteria
growing into histamine.

612
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,440
And then, yeah, basically you
never have that kill step

613
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,240
because it's slow cooked.
You'll never actually like

614
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,400
heating to high temperature
because you don't want to

615
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,880
denature the, the, the collagen
and that sort of stuff which is

616
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,520
in there.
So then you end up with a high

617
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,480
histamine low.
So if you have a doll with

618
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,880
sensitivities, then you can
actually have a problem.

619
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,240
And but I'm not saying this is
going to be true for most small

620
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,320
producers, but there are going
to be small producers with these

621
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,720
problems.
So actually just thinking

622
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,320
inherently dealing with a small
producer must be better isn't

623
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160
actually true.
You actually want them to be of

624
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,600
a certain size.
Now, like I'm not going go out

625
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,000
and support the biggest of the
big companies, but be careful

626
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,120
what you're doing when you're
talking about small badge

627
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,480
because you know, it's like
eating dinner at somebody in

628
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,520
each of your next door
neighbour's house for the next

629
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920
month.
There's I'm not saying that like

630
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,600
everyone's house is going to be
bad for you or, or it's going to

631
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,960
make your stomach upset, but I
guarantee one of them will

632
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,400
because not everyone is
hygienic.

633
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,360
Not everyone fail their safety
protocols and a lot of smaller

634
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,640
companies fly under the radar.
And especially when you're

635
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,000
making stuff for yourself.
Are you following proper kill

636
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,040
steps?
Are you following, you know,

637
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,360
like if you can't use a kill
step, are you doing things

638
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,680
aseptically?
Are you, you know, are you

639
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,360
walking in there with like
rubber gloves on and keeping

640
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,720
things frozen to a sort of like
to -19° until you can take it

641
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,600
out and all this sort of stuff?
Like chances are no.

642
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,960
And so you are likely to end up
in a situation where you could

643
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:03,600
cause yourself problems by
almost trying too hard to

644
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,560
actually like be the best pet
parent.

645
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,600
There is a trade off.
Like there's plenty of good

646
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,240
companies out there which are
doing things properly, which

647
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:14,960
aren't small batch.
And I'm not talking about the

648
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,720
company's small batch because
they're not a small company, but

649
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,960
you know what I mean.
But like who are, who aren't

650
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,320
doing small batch.
But again, if you are using

651
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,360
somebody who is, let's say a
small producer, just ask to see

652
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440
their facilities.
Make sure you understand like

653
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,680
what a facility should look like
before you start buying from

654
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,360
them because again, you're
running a risk.

655
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,360
And there are there is problems
for bacterial situations like

656
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,400
look, chicken, chicken can be
full of salmonella like you

657
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,200
know, and again, that salmonella
if it's not properly killed off.

658
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,520
And if you're using your own
oven or a small industrial oven,

659
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,800
is that oven cooking
consistently all the way through

660
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,080
because again, like some of
them, they'll cook strongly,

661
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,120
strongly in the middle.
The ones at the end so you can

662
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,960
test you could have like.
Ten of the chicken products from

663
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,640
the middle, no problem.
The one at the sides which

664
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,240
didn't really get the full
cooking process could be like

665
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,320
could make your dog I'll.
So again, just I'm not trying to

666
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,920
put anyone off using small
companies, but understanding the

667
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,280
difference between making it
yourself and actually using a

668
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,400
reputable company who's actually
doing things properly is is

669
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,960
actually could actually make a
difference to to your dogs

670
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,440
health, long term longevity,
that sort of stuff.

671
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,600
And look, it's like anything you
can get lucky doing it that way

672
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,600
and you can get unlucky using a
big company.

673
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,240
But I'm just saying, just like
Vegas odds roll of the dice.

674
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,880
That's why you should go to be
honest.

675
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,320
All right, Clayton, so a very
hot topic that my listeners love

676
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,920
to hear about and hate to hear
about is HPP Processing.

677
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,200
So what are your thoughts of HPP
in the pet industry

678
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,000
specifically?
OK.

679
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:10,440
So I think with HPP like, like
you have to, I think it's, it

680
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,080
goes down to the safety
measures.

681
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,120
And I think like a lot of people
don't like the concept of safety

682
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,400
when it comes to pet food
because again, there is like the

683
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,800
naturation of the, you know, it
affects the protein, it affects

684
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,640
the amino acids, and all of
these things are true.

685
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,480
Like HPP does do all of these
things.

686
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:35,040
It is there is a a form of
damage to the proteins, to the

687
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:42,560
amino acids as a result of HPP,
but it's also probably one of

688
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,160
the best forms of actually
having a kill step in me.

689
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:54,560
And it is a cold step.
And again, it's while it is, it

690
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,560
does have an effect on on the
protein on the food.

691
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,360
The actual, I would rather like
a piece, a piece of muscle mate,

692
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:10,240
which has had HPP sterilisation
is still vastly superior to de

693
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:16,560
mechanically debone meat or, you
know, collagen covered like

694
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:22,080
sinew, like wrapped sinew, like
trim, which hasn't been #1

695
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,520
because the quality of the
proteins are going to be better.

696
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,240
The amino acids are going to be
stronger.

697
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,000
It's going to be higher in, you
know, tryptophan, lysine,

698
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,160
methionine, all these, all this
good stuff which you need in,

699
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,600
in, in your dog's diet.
And you're not going to get the,

700
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:42,120
the, the issues with potential
pathogens because again,

701
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,440
especially with things like
chicken, salmonella is the one

702
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,240
of the most common bacterial
forms on chicken.

703
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,680
And yeah, you could take, you
can, you can take that risk.

704
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,000
But again, like, why?
Why would you, if you can use a,

705
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,880
you know, when we, you know, we
use HPP to compress things like

706
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,920
juices and we see that as being
a good thing.

707
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,400
We don't say, Oh yeah, but it's
destroying the integrity of the

708
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,560
juices.
OK, it's it's yeah, a little

709
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,640
bit.
But also we're doing it because

710
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:19,680
we don't want to get ill.
And again, you can like it's a

711
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,800
it's a Vegas odds thing is that
eventually if you keep not doing

712
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,760
something, if you keep avoiding
process, you, you might get away

713
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,800
with it 10 * 50 * 100 times.
But is it worth it that once in

714
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,800
a while the way actually like it
can cause a real issue, a real,

715
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,760
you know, Goa issue or, you
know, makes your dog quite I'll

716
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,960
just because you worry about a
little bit of like damage to

717
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,960
your proteins and your amino
acids.

718
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,880
When actually what you should be
looking at first is you know

719
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,600
what what is actually these,
what is it?

720
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,520
What is the actual type of meat?
But also grinding meat to

721
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,120
finally increases oxidation like
that's far more damaging to the

722
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,240
protein, to the cell structure
of the meat than HPP ever is.

723
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:15,560
So I can see it from both sides.
But when people's it's become a

724
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,840
buzzword where people are like
HPP bad and then other people

725
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,280
are there going, no, no, it's
not too bad.

726
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,160
It's not too bad.
And it's like, OK, it's kind of

727
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,040
I see it more as a necessary
evil rather than a good versus

728
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,480
bad thing.
Because again, yeah, in an ideal

729
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,400
world, if there was a process
that didn't damage the proteins

730
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,800
at all and everything was
absolutely intact, use that.

731
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:43,200
My, my, to my knowledge, there's
10 times worse things that are

732
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,080
already happening in the
industry with food.

733
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,960
Like, so like I say, you know,
emulsifying being the worst, but

734
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,920
going down to like the bone,
like mechanical deboning, you

735
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:03,640
know, high levels of like, of
like, you know, like meat, which

736
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,080
has no nutritional value, like a
high grinding, which is, you

737
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,440
know, high level like fine
grinding, which causes

738
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,560
oxidation.
These are all worse than HPP in

739
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,200
the scale of things.
Not to say that HPP is like

740
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,840
doesn't have an effect, because
it it genuinely does.

741
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,320
But it's not.
It's not if you're looking for

742
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,360
problems, it's not.
It should never be top of your

743
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,600
list.
So I, I'm sure you've seen a lot

744
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,480
of trends come and go over your
career.

745
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:43,960
One of the things that we're
seeing, and I'm not necessarily

746
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,080
mad about it, but I'm just
curious how you're viewing it.

747
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,600
A lot of the, all of the big
companies here in the US are,

748
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,360
and I know in Australia too, I
think, or I've heard of it in

749
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,240
Australia, they are all in some
way, shape or form entering the

750
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,920
fresh pet food space, whether
that is cooked or raw or

751
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,520
sometimes both.
How?

752
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,400
How do you see this going?
What is?

753
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,000
What is your viewpoint and
opinion on?

754
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,240
On so yeah, well, look, we've
seen the same like the UK is

755
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:26,160
seeing the same as Usus is more
advanced than the UK.

756
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,440
So I think I want to say 20% is
now why if we're gently cooked

757
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,240
or frozen raw something like
that.

758
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:35,840
The UK U.S. market, I think in
the UK it's around 10 in Europe

759
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,760
it's still under 5.
So the US is, but we're all

760
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:46,760
following EU s S trend.
Personally, I like it like I'm,

761
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,600
I am naturally holistic.
I do, you know, I would say I'm

762
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,080
not a vet, but if I was, I'd be
integrative.

763
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,840
I believe in trying to use as
many natural things as possible

764
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,080
because that's going to cause
less problems.

765
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,880
And like, look, I've seen
manufacturing technology up

766
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,040
close.
I've seen how they make loaf

767
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,840
like wet food, you know, like,
you know, turning it into marsh

768
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,120
and squirting it into packets
and that sort of stuff.

769
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,120
And it's not, it's not great.
So if you, there's a process

770
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,640
where you're doing things
better, that's great.

771
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:27,120
But I think it's just important
that like with any new industry,

772
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,440
there's going to be good actors
and bad actors.

773
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,200
And for me, it's about making
sure you find the good actors

774
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,560
that are out there and look,
there's plenty of them.

775
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,920
And look, that's what I say.
Look, there's some of the

776
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,560
questions.
I, I said like, you know, asking

777
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,800
what, what are the cuts of meat
going in this?

778
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,040
Where is it coming from?
Is it, is it mechanically

779
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,880
deboned?
Like what percentage is

780
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,840
mechanically deboned?
Because again, like a lot of

781
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,560
these companies, this is what
they're using, you know, and the

782
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,000
reality is, is the pet food
prices are lower than human food

783
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,480
prices.
And so there is a lot more

784
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,400
mechanically deboned and in the
in the, in the pet food

785
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,120
industry.
Now we also have things like

786
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,920
laying chickens and that sort of
stuff which goes into pet food,

787
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,640
which is good quality.
We wouldn't eat it personally

788
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,640
because, you know, our average
like chicken is cold at about

789
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,040
six weeks, whereas the laying
hen is 18 weeks.

790
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,360
So if you were to try and find
it really tough and really

791
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,840
strong tasting.
But again, look, just asking

792
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,320
people what what is the meat
that's actually being used?

793
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,920
Because just saying chicken or
just saying beef or just saying

794
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,280
lamb, the kind of cop out terms
and like, and, and if they say

795
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,600
to you we're we use on them 20%
mechanically debomo, we use 10%

796
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,760
trim and you know, sinew and
that sort of stuff.

797
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,280
And we use 50% muscle meat.
That's fine because there is a

798
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,680
trade off.
But again, it's just

799
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,800
transparency, you know, and just
making sure that the companies

800
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,040
you are dealing with aren't
firing lots of nonsense out.

801
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,160
Yeah, it's really important to
be honest.

802
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,520
So.
But again, the problem is, is

803
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:16,000
because the people buying gently
cooked raw foods, they are the

804
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,480
people who are more engaged,
more aware, want to do the best.

805
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,320
And I think it's really
important for those people to

806
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,960
really understand what doing the
best actually is and not just

807
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,560
being swept up on a bit of a
marketing stream with these

808
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,080
guys.
Because look, I feed raw and I

809
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,120
feed gently cooked.
So I have 5 dogs, 2 are on

810
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,080
gently cooked, free on raw.
I know the provenance of those

811
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,680
products.
I know the companies that make

812
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,280
it.
I've been to their facilities.

813
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,280
So I understand.
And look, I know that I'm in a

814
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,320
weirdly privileged position.
But if a company, if you can

815
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,040
phone a company and they'll ask
you and they'll tell you the

816
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,600
answer, I think that's good
enough because most most

817
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,120
companies if they are dodgy
about it, they just want to

818
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,120
answer the question and those
the companies you should buy off

819
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,680
of.
Yeah, I can see how in the next

820
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,040
5 to 10 years possibly, you
know, these people that are

821
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:18,640
maybe a brand loyalist or just
kind of starting to dabble in

822
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,520
fresh food because these larger
brands are coming into the

823
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,920
market.
In the next 5 to 10 years, these

824
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,320
same pet parents might start
finding the smaller companies

825
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,880
that we all know and love right
now.

826
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,760
How do you think that's going to
affect them moving forward?

827
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,960
Like, they're going to, in my
opinion, have to be even more

828
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,360
transparent than they are now.
But how do you from your point

829
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,240
of view, how do you see their
role?

830
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,320
In the.
World changing.

831
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,840
Yeah, So I think it is more
important for smaller brands to

832
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,400
be more transparent because
look, I think we've already seen

833
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,560
noise from Royal Cannon going
into the fresh, the gently

834
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:05,200
cooked market.
Farmer's Dog is an absolutely

835
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:11,920
enormous brand in the US and
like nobody likes to see their

836
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,800
their sales eroded.
And so, you know, you're Nestle

837
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,120
Purinas, your General Mills,
your Mars Pet foods, they're

838
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:20,520
going to need a piece of that
action.

839
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,120
And so they're going to come out
with products that are going to

840
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,080
look similar, maybe not be as
good.

841
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,680
Maybe they will, I don't know,
like I'm, I'm assuming because

842
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,360
they'd like to spend a lot more
on marketing than they do on the

843
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,960
product in the packet.
But they also have better buying

844
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,240
chains.
They buy products for a much

845
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:39,600
lower amount.
So again, they're hard to

846
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,040
compete with from that
perspective.

847
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,200
But these smaller companies to
stay relevant, yeah,

848
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,720
transparency is key.
And actually, This is why I'm

849
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,520
kind of passionate about talking
to companies about this

850
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,960
transparency thing, because if
they want to safeguard their

851
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,880
future transparency now, when
you don't need to be transparent

852
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,440
is going to be the thing that
saves you down the line.

853
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,840
Like be 100% transparent about
your process, about what you're

854
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,520
using, about your kill steps,
about everything you're doing,

855
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,240
because that's going to save you
when, when the big boys come,

856
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,120
come after your market, which
they will do, you know, like

857
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,280
they'll always be there.
And if they're not, they'll,

858
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,960
they might buy one or two, you
know, they might change the

859
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,560
recipes, whatever.
That's it's kind of a, but they

860
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,000
will come after that market
share because they won't sit

861
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,600
back.
I mean, 20% is already

862
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:36,000
phenomenal and as it grows, the
the pressure for those companies

863
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,840
to eat back into that market is
going to really affect smaller

864
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,760
companies.
So they need to safeguard

865
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,160
themselves now.
And so it's not, it's about

866
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,400
looking after the pet parents,
but also looking after

867
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,440
themselves and their own long
term future and being open and

868
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,040
honest about what they do in the
market.

869
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:57,680
Yeah, it's that put put your
oxygen mask on 1st, right?

870
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,760
Yeah, yeah.
What?

871
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,840
Don't don't.
Yeah, don't wait until the

872
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,120
nuclear balls of bombs are
falling to build a bunker, you

873
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,040
know, do you know what I mean?
It's sort of like be aware of

874
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,520
like every industry is the same,
you know, small companies get

875
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,800
things going like private equity
money builds it up and the big

876
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,280
guys come in and try and re
dominate.

877
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,920
But again, they don't need to
test the market.

878
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,080
The market gets validated by
someone else, but you will get

879
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,960
swamped and you will get taken
out if you don't have a strong

880
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,480
position in the market.
So building that loyalty,

881
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,400
setting the rules of the game
now for the future are going to

882
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,600
be important.
Because again, if you can set

883
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,120
the rules of the game and the
transparency now, that's the way

884
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,160
you're going to win.
Because again, look, my belief

885
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,560
is, is that at least 50% of the
companies out there doing this

886
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,480
are doing it the right way and
doing it for the right reasons.

887
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,600
And the ones who aren't, you
know, I don't care about them.

888
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:04,920
So but they, they do need to,
they do need to think about the

889
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,160
future because again, they're in
like a a bit of a golden age at

890
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,400
the moment where they're all
just competing with each other.

891
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,040
But once the, and this is what I
say, America's a lot worse than

892
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,640
this for the different the UK.
But once the the big money moves

893
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,640
in, it will become very, very
dodgy for them, you know?

894
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:30,200
It becomes very dodgy for pet
parents as well because it's

895
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,960
just like we to me, I feel like
in this tiny little niche corner

896
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,200
of the pet industry where we're
like, you know, demanding

897
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,440
transparency and we want the
best for our pets.

898
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,880
It we a lot of us feel like we
have a good handle on

899
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,560
understanding what we need to
understand to make the best

900
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,920
decisions for our pets.
And we're in always continuing

901
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,360
to learn so that we can continue
to make the best decisions for

902
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,360
our pets.
But it is going to muddy the

903
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,200
waters for sure the more these.
Yeah.

904
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,880
And look, I think this is, This
is why putting that little bit

905
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,200
of extra effort in matters like
when you're looking at a

906
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:21,440
supplement, three ingredients,
if if like if there's more than

907
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,800
five or six ingredients, then
probably don't buy it.

908
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,360
You don't need to be a genius
with this stuff.

909
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,120
And like, look, the more
transparency, the better.

910
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,640
So if you know, if you're
looking on a a bag of meat and

911
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,640
it's telling you this is made
with, you know, heart chicken,

912
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,520
like, you know, heart, liver,
whatever, you know, muscle meat,

913
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,880
etcetera, that's fine.
They're they're open, they're

914
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,200
transparent.
You don't need to be an expert.

915
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,520
You just need to know that the
company you're buying from is

916
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,760
being open and honest with you
and not hiding it behind, you

917
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,720
know, legally protected
ingredients, which you can do.

918
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:03,720
Like look, when it when it comes
to ingredients, I can put

919
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:07,360
whatever I want on pet food.
Like we reason I can put freshly

920
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,920
prepared meat.
I can put, if I'm saying beef, I

921
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,520
can put freshly prepared beef, I
can put beef, or I can put beef

922
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,720
trim, or I could put beef.
Beef, yeah, like beef from let's

923
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,320
say shoulder from back from
whatever.

924
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,000
I can be really specific if I
want, but I can also be really

925
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,200
unspecific.
So trying to get people to trust

926
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,360
those ones that are really
specific is a good start because

927
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,640
again, if the more people are
hiding, the worse it is for the

928
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,760
consumer.
And the pet at the end of the

929
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:37,600
day.
Potentially.

930
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,040
And the pet for sure, I mean.
Yeah.

931
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,520
Obviously, but obviously.
What is there anything else that

932
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,040
we haven't covered that you're
like, I really wanted to talk

933
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,720
about this today?
I could like bleat on about all

934
00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,280
kinds of stuff, to be honest.
I'm, I'm a bit like that, to be

935
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,040
honest.
I, I think I'm, you know, it's

936
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,000
just, I think just being in the
industry for a long time, I

937
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,800
think, and I've never been a
like a corporate guy, to be

938
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:06,880
honest.
I was always working with

939
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,880
independence and smaller
producers and like even now,

940
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,320
even though I have worked for
corporates as a consultant, I

941
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,040
tend to prefer working for
smaller companies because I like

942
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:25,960
to sleep at night generally.
But I think, yeah, I think it's

943
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:33,080
really like, I say, I think in
terms of like, yeah, looking,

944
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,120
looking at products, I think, I
think just looking for as much

945
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,480
transparency as possible and
like, I think look, trusting

946
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,080
your local store, they'd like,
we're still lucky enough that

947
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,800
there are still independent
stores and there are still pet

948
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,160
professionals out there which
you can talk to about stuff.

949
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,840
Some are better than others,
some some, but, you know, some

950
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,400
are more engaged than others.
But I do think that, you know,

951
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,200
engaging with a good like, you
know, retailer is, is still the

952
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,360
best way to do it rather than
just relying on Amazon and yeah,

953
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,280
or just buying online.
Because I think we learn a lot

954
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,920
from actually talking to to
individual sellers who actually

955
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,440
are genuinely passionate about
about what they do.

956
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:25,640
And I think that the modern era
does make us lazy and not not

957
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,680
actually do do what we should to
be honest.

958
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,160
So there is a lot of like small
independence fellows out there

959
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,200
who who are really passionate,
who have read a lot, who do care

960
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,480
about nutrition, who do care
about giving people the right

961
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,840
products for the right, right
situation.

962
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,920
So I think it's just working
with those guys as much as you

963
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,760
can is important.
Yeah, I think that's a great

964
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:54,840
place to end because absolutely
supporting local independent pet

965
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,960
stores is is one of the best
things we can do do as pet

966
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,040
parents because they are really
there for us just like you just

967
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,960
said.
And Speaking of sleeping at

968
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,840
night, I will let you get to
that because you stayed up late

969
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,560
to to record this for us and I
appreciate that.

970
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,760
No, that's right.
It's it's still only like it's

971
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,560
not even 10:00 PM here.
So that's fine.

972
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,520
That's fine.
Well, I certainly appreciate you

973
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,720
for jumping on here and sharing
some of your knowledge with us.

974
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:28,320
Clayton, can you tell everybody
a little bit about your podcast?

975
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,640
It may not, you know, be for the
average pet parent.

976
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,160
It may be, I don't know what,
what is what do you feel like

977
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,520
your audience is?
Tell, tell us a.

978
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:38,720
Little bit more about it.
I don't know who my audience is

979
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:39,960
if I'm on this.
So I have.

980
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,440
It's the biggest pet industry
podcast, so it's called Pet

981
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,720
Business Disruptors and I try
and engage people who are doing

982
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,560
different things differently or,
and that can be everything from

983
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,360
I've had pet crematoriums on
talking about the cremation

984
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,480
industry to, you know, people
making alternative proteins to,

985
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,280
you know, like to brands that
develop, develop and evolving

986
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,080
nutritionist vets, that sort of
stuff.

987
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,520
So people who sort of stand on
the fringes and and shout a

988
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,280
different machine is what I try
and do.

989
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,640
Because I think like, look, I
mean, and, and I don't know who

990
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,360
listens, People listen.
I don't know why you want to

991
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,680
listen to me is beyond me.
I mean, so sorry to anyone who

992
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,000
did listen to to me waffling on,
but yeah.

993
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,960
So if you want to listen, it's
on all the channels, whatever.

994
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,880
Awesome.
Well that will be in the show

995
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,280
notes as well guys, if you just
want to go click the link to it.

996
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,880
So thank you so much again for
being here with us, Clayton.

997
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:41,000
Thank you for listening today.
And please give your pets some

998
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,560
extra love from me and from
Clayton today and I will talk to

999
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:44,880
you next.