DOG BITES | Weekly Pet Roundup

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Hi everybody, welcome back to
the weekly Pet Roundup.

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My name is Jessica.
I'm with the Pet Parenting

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Reset.
This is Isabel with covered and

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pet hair and Hi.
So this week we were talking

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about dog bites.
And I think, I mean, obviously

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there's a lot of like dog bite
prevention that can be talked

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about.
But I know last week when you

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were suggesting this, you were
like, we need to get kind of in

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the nitty gritty of this and
like realize that this is not

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sometimes you have to make
really hard decisions.

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So yeah, I'm going to let, I'm
going to let you start off with

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like where you want this I think
to go because it's a big, it's a

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big topic and it it can be a
very emotional topic as well.

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Yes.
So trigger warning for today,

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first of all, because we will
probably discuss behavioral

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euthanasia, which is when you
put a dog and we're talking

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about dogs specifically today
when we when we put a dog down

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because of a behavior, because
of escalating behaviors, because

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of bites and bite histories,
because that dog is incompatible

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with life as we know it.
So that is behavioral euthanasia

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as best as I can explain it.
There are many reasons for

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behavioral euthanasia.
But today we'll talk about bite

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related euthanasia.
And the reason I wanted to talk

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about this topic is because a
friend of mine from the DC area

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reached out and she says that a
friend of hers found a dog.

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The details escaped me right
now.

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I read them when the Facebook
message came in, but and the dog

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ended up staying with them.
And the time frame again, I'm

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not 100% on, but over the time
that they've had them, let's say

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in the past year or two, the dog
has bit resource guarding was

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mentioned around meal times.
And immediately I thought, OK,

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management, but I didn't dig
into the situation because I

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don't want to make this a
personal discussion about this

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case.
I want to talk about it more

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generally.
But one of the recommendations

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that this particular family has
received is behavioral

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euthanasia.
So I thought this is a

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conversation that a lot of
people have and it's actually a

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lot more common than many people
maybe think.

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And I know that people have
conversations about behavioral

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euthanasia relating to fear as
well and separation anxiety when

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like it just escalates so bad
that the pet is a danger to

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himself and others, him or
herself and others.

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So, but we'll talk about, you
know, like just bites in general

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and when a dog is biting so
often and in ways that make it

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really hard for training to
work.

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Yeah.
What we do as humans to set them

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up for failure often and how we
can set them up for success.

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So first I think the most
important thing is to understand

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that what a bite is.
So I did look up and if you have

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any experiences with this kind
of stuff, please join in

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comments either on Facebook, on
YouTube or on Instagram and

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we'll we'll get to you as soon
as there's a little pause.

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But there are bike scales out
there.

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The one that I always kind of
refer to is the Dunbar bike

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scale dog bike scale.
It's Ian Dunbar is a really well

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known dog trainer.
I've heard him speak at at a

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couple conferences.
I have a lot of respect for him.

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I've kind of lost track with him
of him for over the past few

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years.
He's one of your OG like

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positive trainers.
He.

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Is and I, I've taken a few of
his courses online and I think

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the reason that you have, you
may not have heard from him in a

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while is because he, I think his
son is taking over the business.

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Probably retirement age, right?
Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.
And I'm sure there's some

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difficulties in that, you know,
because it's not the same

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person, though I'm sure he has
the same style of training

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because that's what he grew up
with, that's what he knows.

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And yeah, I think I, I still get
emails pretty regularly from

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them.
I say them because I think his

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father is still involved in some
ways and making like, not

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necessarily the everyday
content, but like if they need

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to do like a YouTube video or,
you know, put out a course or,

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or whatever, like his, I think
his father is still involved in

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that.
But yeah, I, I think he's

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probably one of my favorite
resources for, for dog training.

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Absolutely.
Same.

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So he, he and one.
One would think that there would

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be this would be kind of well
known, but I know for a fact

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most pet parents don't know
about the Dunbar bite scale.

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I know that professional pet
sitters may not even know about

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it.
Some of the newer ones I know

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the ones who've had a lot of
studying and and done a lot of

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education in the industry do.
But it is something that I feel

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like people don't know about.
And I think it's so important

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that every single pet parent
know about this scale, because a

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snap.
Is considered.

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A bite.
And yeah.

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A lot of people are like, oh, he
didn't bite, he just snapped.

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And what I love about this scale
is that it is considered level 1

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is a dog to snap and make no
contact.

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That is level 1 bites.
And what that's so important for

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pet parents to know because
people don't take notice until

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you get to like a Level 3 and
then.

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And.
Sometimes it's really the a lot

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of damage has been done.
Not to say it's too late, but a

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lot of damage has been done.
So pet parents, dog parents, if

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your dog is one that snaps
Satchmo, my the dog that I just

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took from my sister snaps all
the time, which is one of the

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reasons why he doesn't live with
a toddler right now.

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He lives in my house where my
kids are older and literally

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just ignore him.
They've been told to never pet

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him and they don't.
But you can't tell a toddler

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that who's 16 months, right?
On the contrary, he looks like a

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stuffed animal.
So that toddler would just go

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after him.
And a lot of people are like,

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oh, just teach the toddler.
That just tells me you don't

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have toddlers, you have no
experience with toddlers.

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They're like, they have a death
wish.

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You can tell them not to jump
off a Cliff and they will.

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So that's why you hold on tight
to them.

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So, yeah, so the bite levels for
the Dunbar Dog bite scale start

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at level 1, which is again a
snap.

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There is a an aggressive
reactive open of the mouth, snap

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of the teeth or even just a
redirection that looks

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aggressive.
And there is no contact made on

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the person or pet or animal that
they're being they're trying to

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bite or that they're trying to
warn because of a lot of us call

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it warning.
Warning bites too, right?

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Yeah, and I, Kim has done this.
I'm not going to like, I'm not

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going to lie.
And I took, I took it very, very

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seriously.
And I think that's one thing

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that pet parents often don't do
is they're like, oh, that's

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cute, that's funny.
That's not cute, that's not

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funny.
It's it is natural.

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Like we are putting a dog in an
environment that is not natural

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to them, giving them no real
instruction that they

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understand.
Just saying no to them all the

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time, right?
Without telling them what they

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should be doing instead, or
showing them what they should be

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doing instead.
And then expecting them to act

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the way we want them to act
without having taught them any

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of it.
Like that's in my opinion.

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And a lot of people will be
like, well, it's communication.

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He's communicating.
And I'll say he just because

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it's easier for me to refer to
dogs in general as he.

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I think actually in the pet
industry or in the dog training

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industry, usually they refer to
dogs as female like cars and

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stuff.
But I literally, if you're going

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to compare a dog to a car and
call it female just because of

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that, I'm going to do the
opposite.

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So it is I'm just going to refer
to all of them as as he in this

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scenario just so I don't have to
correct myself.

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But yes, your dog is
communicating when they do a

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level 1 bite, which is AKA a
snap aaka, a warning bite, AKA a

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request for space.
It is communication.

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The problem is that that dog
should have other ways of

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communicating that don't get to
the level where it's almost a

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bite.
And what we're seeing when a dog

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almost bites in a level 1 is
that either you ignored the

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communication that became prior
or that dog doesn't have the

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tools to communicate prior,
which is something that I'm not.

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You can't always blame the
human.

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A lot of the times you can blame
the human.

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But like with Satchmo, I saw
him, I witnessed him ages ago

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jump on my grandmother's lap.
She did not, she does not like

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dogs.
She did not invite him up.

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She did not want anything to do
with him.

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And then she kind of looked at
him.

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And as she looked down, she
moved and he snapped her.

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So he.
Very Chihuahua thing to do.

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I know he's not a Chihuahua, but
yes, that's a.

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Very.
That's a very confused and

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secure, unsocialized, under
socialized dog thing to do.

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He jumped on her because it was
storming.

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But then he got there and he was
like, but don't touch me.

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Right.
Yeah.

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Right.
So he doesn't have the tools.

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He doesn't have the
communication.

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In his case, my grandmother did
nothing wrong.

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And obviously she was in a rock
and a hard place because if she

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had been like, get off of me, he
would have been on her for real.

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So she was just kind of like,
oh, she doesn't like pets.

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So she didn't want him on her at
all.

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She's the only one in my family
of significant pets lovers that

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is like, I don't care about dogs
and cats.

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Like I don't care about them.
A cat attacked her when she was

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little.
So from that, from then on, it

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was like terrified, petrified of
pets.

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That probably didn't help the
situation either because he

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thought he maybe he thought he
was jumping on my mom and he

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ended up on the lady who doesn't
like him.

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And so there's a lot of
psychology at play, right?

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But at the end of the day, if
they're communicating by

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snapping at you, they're that's
why we take that so seriously,

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because that means that either
you're disrespecting your dog's

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boundaries and you're ignoring
other communication that comes

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before the bite, like licking
the lips, like yawning, like

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looking away, like whale I all
those appeasement signs that we

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refer to as appeasement signs,
you're ignoring all of those.

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And then you're pushing your dog
to this.

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Right.
Yeah.

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Your dog doesn't have the words,
which also does happen and like

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we need to.
And those are the dogs that I

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think are at highest risk for
behavioral euthanasia because

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those are the dogs that are so
unpredictable that sometimes we

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end up in the situation where
it's like, I don't know when

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he's going to bite.
I don't know what triggers the

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bite.
So now I'm really scared of this

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dog escalating and hurting
somebody and not having the

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tools to solve it.
Yeah, yeah.

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Well, and I think yes, aside
from those dogs who don't have

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those tools, who, who don't,
don't have any warning signs

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because they just don't know
they those types of dogs set

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those aside for a minute.
And, and like, when I think

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about so many of the bite cases,
it is all I can see in my mind

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are like these videos that
people post on social media of,

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you know, their children, their
toddlers, like pulling and

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jumping on top of the backs of.
And it's like, this is not

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funny.
This is not cute.

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This.
And, and, you know, you can see

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in this animal's body language,
in their eyes that they are so

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uncomfortable and they are
trying so hard not to bite.

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And those are the ones that like
just break my heart because

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that's going to be the very
first time that dog bites.

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They're going to get put down
when?

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That happened to me with a
friend.

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Friends were over ages ago with
their toddler and my dog's socks

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had a bite history and we had
never seen her bite anybody.

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But she bit like a neighbor
because the mailman was coming

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and the dog Walker had her on
too far thing.

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And it was like that perfect
storm and the lady was too close

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and she like snapped and she did
a Level 3, a single bite with a

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shallow wound.
It was a tiny little nick, but

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00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,480
it was still a Level 3.
We're not going to make excuses

227
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,840
for her.
But but that was like that had

228
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,280
been like 3 years prior.
We hadn't seen any kind of

229
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,640
behavior like that.
We had had the dogs away.

230
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,760
We take them outside because
it's about to storm.

231
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,560
And so we're like the Fort
starts raining.

232
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,040
Let me let's let's let them pee.
We're going to put them back

233
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,800
into the room where they were in
and the toddler starts really

234
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,800
getting into that.
Of all the four dogs we had the

235
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,640
one with the bite history, I got
distracted and Chris was

236
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,680
monitoring.
Chris was my husband was, was

237
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,720
supervising, which was our first
mistake.

238
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,360
I'm the one with the pet
experience.

239
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,600
I'm the one who has done dog
training and who's learned dog

240
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,120
behavior.
I was getting something for one

241
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,040
of my guests playing Hostess,
right?

242
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,240
And Chris was like, hey, don't
she doesn't.

243
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,400
Socks doesn't like she's scared
of strangers or something.

244
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,360
And the mom was very chill about
the situation.

245
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,320
And Socks actually walked with
cameras in our home just because

246
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,600
we had two dogs that didn't
super get along.

247
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,720
So we always wanted to see like,
if something happened, we want

248
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,920
to be able to replay it.
They were craving separately

249
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,720
when we weren't there.
It's usually what happens

250
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,920
usually was when we were there,
there was like a scuffle and we

251
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,680
wanted to see what happened.
So we had cameras.

252
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,760
And when I watched the camera
over, I saw how Sox was walking

253
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,760
away from the child, but the
child kept following her.

254
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:53,640
And then you hear the mom saying
don't, don't climb the dog.

255
00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,480
So she saw that he was about to
kind of climb the dog and you

256
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:07,560
see my dog tense up and go and
it she in this case thank God it

257
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,720
was a level 2 where the teeth
made contact but did not break

258
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,920
the skin.
She was a 65 LB dog and he was a

259
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,600
toddler.
If she wanted to hurt him, she

260
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,360
ABS 100% would have hurt him.
Yeah.

261
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,640
Angels, our ancestors, our
angels, our spirit guides.

262
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,320
Everybody.
Somebody was.

263
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,680
Everybody was there to protect
that child, but I was told it

264
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,760
was unprovoked until I saw the
video and I said it's not

265
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,200
unprovoked.
She's walking away and the child

266
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,400
is following her and so is the
mom who she doesn't know.

267
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,720
So even though for the mom it
was like I'm supervising my kid

268
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,960
now.
It's two strangers, not just

269
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,760
one, right?
So like it's mom's mom was

270
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,240
completely right to be right
there guiding the child.

271
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,080
But the dog is like 2 strangers
and Chris was there but he was

272
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,800
kind of mind them so it socks
his mind.

273
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,000
He wasn't there to reinforce
anything or protect her because

274
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,480
she was too far away.
He was between these two

275
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,560
threats.
In her mind they were threats.

276
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:20,440
And this is a dog that had been
trained with shock choke prong

277
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,960
collars, a dog with a ton of
stranger danger.

278
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,960
And so in her mind, it was 1000%
provoked in my husband's mind.

279
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,880
And what the obviously the
toddler, it's not his fault in

280
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,160
any way.
Like he like we should never

281
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,560
have set him up in that way or
her really human adult human

282
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,000
failure.
And obviously the mom was way

283
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,280
too cool with like don't climb
the dog.

284
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,400
Like if I'm super paranoid about
dog kid relations.

285
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,920
So I'd be like, how dare you
even get near the dog?

286
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,840
Walk away now, right?
Like if I have to tell you not

287
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,640
to climb a dog, you're way in
the dog space completely.

288
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,880
So like everybody kind of like
dropped the ball and myself

289
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,839
included.
And the kid got fit.

290
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:12,599
And everybody who did not know
dog behavior said it was

291
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,280
unprovoked when, when I watched
it back and I sent it to a

292
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,839
friend of mine and my then
business partner who had just

293
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,960
gone through like Karen Pryor
and Victoria Stillwell's

294
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,480
training.
And she was like unprovoked and

295
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,560
she was and you know, because
she, she knew Socks, my, my

296
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,440
former business partner.
And she said, I'm so proud of

297
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,200
socks.
Did you see her walking away?

298
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,440
Did you see her be like, I don't
like this, I'm going to walk

299
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,040
into the other room?
And it was so funny because,

300
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,600
yes, somebody with that
experience and that knowledge

301
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,040
sees that the dog tried to avoid
it and the humans set her up for

302
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,120
failure, right?
Yeah.

303
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,440
And the same thing happened with
Noah and Socks a few years

304
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,680
later.
She was resource guarding me.

305
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,520
I said to Chris, this is getting
tense.

306
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,200
I could see her.
I could see her.

307
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,840
And by the time Chris men make
his way over, she snapped at

308
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,920
Noah.
And that's when I actually had

309
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,760
to consider behavioral
euthanasia for Socks, which she

310
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,400
had never she had gotten to a
level 2 once and we're going to

311
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,080
go into it goes to level 6 guys
and I even had to consider

312
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,160
behavioral euthanasia with this
dog.

313
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000
I thankfully did not have to
make that decision because she

314
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,120
got we managed it really
beautifully.

315
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,880
And then one day she just got
sick and died of unrelated

316
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,480
things.
She was older, so we did not

317
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,040
have to face that, but she only
got to a level 2, which is teeth

318
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,040
make contact but do not break
the skin with my son.

319
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,080
But after that was the second
level 2 with a toddler and I had

320
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,800
a toddler and I was pregnant
with my second.

321
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,480
It was very, very concerning,
right?

322
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,080
Concerning that this dog is
incompatible with toddlers.

323
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,160
But I'm the most experienced pet
owner she could probably have,

324
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,720
right?
Like where else does she go from

325
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,280
my house?
Right.

326
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,880
Like yeah, yeah, other than
somebody without kids.

327
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,240
Well, but then still because.
She still had a blind history.

328
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,080
Right.
Who was going to take her?

329
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,440
Right?
So she had years before bitten

330
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,520
the neighbor because the mailman
blah blah blah.

331
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:17,840
Yeah.
Who was going to take her with

332
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,360
like now 2 level 2 bites and one
Level 3 bite Nobody like.

333
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,800
So it was one of those
situations where you run out of

334
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,440
choices.
So Level 3 again is a single

335
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,800
bite with shallow wounds.
And that's what this and like

336
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,920
the person that sucks bit who
was a neighbor, we didn't know

337
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,120
them but like obviously we the
dog Walker gave the information

338
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,520
because once there's any kind of
puncture you need to get like

339
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,040
the rabies certificates and all
that.

340
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,840
So all that was done and we paid
like her co-pay.

341
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,680
She went to like urgent care,
they cleaned it out and it was

342
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,560
like a non issue like $35 or
something.

343
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,000
It was not a big deal, but it
did obviously it becomes the

344
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,080
second that there is any kind of
puncture, any kind of wound, it

345
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,360
becomes an issue with animal
control rabies certifications or

346
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,560
certificates, you know, making
sure that's why socks like even

347
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,680
though I wanted to tighter test
her, I always got her vaccinated

348
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,760
because I couldn't risk that she
would not have that certificate

349
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,360
because she had a bite history
and I knew that dogs with a bite

350
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:24,320
history tend to bite again and
if.

351
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,080
She had a rabies certificate.
She could quarantine at the

352
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,880
house.
If she didn't, she could end up

353
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,200
somewhere else quarantining or
they could force us to euthanize

354
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,040
if there was enough of these
incidents.

355
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,680
So I really was very scared to
vaccinate her every three years,

356
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,880
but I had to for her sake.
That's the only dog that I've

357
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,600
ever had where I was like, I
have to do this every three

358
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,480
years.
And then level 4 is a single

359
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:54,160
bite with deep wounds.
And obviously that's like either

360
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,520
1 puncture or like, you know,
the whole, all of the both

361
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,920
canines or something like that
that goes in pretty deep.

362
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,600
Level 5 is multiple bites with
deep wounds.

363
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,040
They went in once and they went
back and they went back and they

364
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,360
went back.
And then level 6 is obviously

365
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,320
the death of the victim and or
flesh consumed.

366
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,200
And like we, we refer to those
as maulings.

367
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,120
Level 6 is a.
Mauling yeah, I couldn't

368
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,560
imagine.
I really.

369
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,040
I mean I I understand it happens
but of.

370
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:36,800
That of for everybody involved.
I have a friend who she was

371
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,640
mauled by a dog.
She was a professional pet

372
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,320
sitter for longer than I was and
then she's never been able to

373
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,840
take care of dogs again.
She's such a she's such a fear.

374
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,600
She recognizes where she went
wrong, but still like it's just

375
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,920
too scary right.
Like her faith in, in, in

376
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,560
knowing how to prevent it when
like she lost faith in herself

377
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,720
knowing how to prevent it,
right.

378
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,320
And so she felt until that
incident that she was prepared

379
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,400
with her education, her
experience to manage or to kind

380
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,440
of.
And she says that she could, I

381
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,480
mean, she could have died.
She got a level 5.

382
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,440
Thankfully he never got her down
on the ground.

383
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,360
But in her mind, if he had
succeeded in pushing her down to

384
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,680
the ground, he would have gotten
to a level 6.

385
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800
And the thing about pet sitter
is dog walkers is that you're

386
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240
alone in the house.
So there's nobody else to help

387
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,360
you, right?
So like that's really when these

388
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:44,120
level fives and sixes happen is
when you're alone or like, you

389
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:45,600
know.
Or.

390
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,960
You're walking in your
neighborhood and a dog attacks

391
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,800
and you don't don't have anybody
near you to help you.

392
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,560
It's you and your dog.
And again, bite levels are just

393
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,640
bite levels.
It doesn't mean against a human,

394
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,280
it could be against another dog
and it could be another animal

395
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,040
like a cat.
We kind of take it less

396
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,480
seriously.
I feel like if a dog bites a cat

397
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,760
because it's like they're,
they're like out in the wild

398
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,600
versus obviously in your home,
very different because then

399
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,880
where, where was the management?
Where was the intro?

400
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,840
But like, I feel like if a dog
bites another dog at a dog park,

401
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,160
it's a lot more severe than a
dog gets off leash and like

402
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,280
chases a cat and like catches
it, right?

403
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,960
Like very different situations,
scenarios.

404
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,640
And so but but a bite level just
refers to a bite, no matter

405
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,960
who's on the receiving end of
it.

406
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,680
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, I've

407
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,160
definitely heard of people
having dogs and cats in the same

408
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,200
house and the dogs killing the
cats.

409
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,080
That's that's a thing.
And I can understand how

410
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,640
traumatic that would be as well.
And that even though that is

411
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,720
especially for some dog I
actually worked with a couple

412
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:09,240
many years ago who fortunately
did not have cats in the house,

413
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:16,280
but would go crazy on a walk if
it came across a cat.

414
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,200
And it was a big dog and it was
a mixed breed dog.

415
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,280
And as soon as I got there, I
could see I was like, I I

416
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,560
realize this is a mixed breed
dog, but you could see the

417
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,440
Ridgeback on this dog.
And I'm like, will you have?

418
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,440
Yeah, mix with a Rhodesian
Ridgeback and these dogs were

419
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,000
bred to hunt lions.
And so this is another reason

420
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,440
why I am, even though it seems
silly and frivolous to get DNA

421
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,280
tests on dogs, like, you know,
I, I, I actually really, really

422
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:56,840
like them because it can give
you a lot of insight into what,

423
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,520
even if it's a bunch of
different breeds, like what were

424
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,160
those breeds bred for?
What should you expect in the

425
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560
behavior of this animal?
And I, and it reminds me of

426
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,760
like, I think there was actually
ATV, one of the shows that

427
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,680
Jackson Galaxy did where he
trained multiple Rhodesian

428
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,680
Ridgebacks in a home that had
cats.

429
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,080
And like, it was about
management.

430
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,720
It really was about management.
And I think it was, yeah,

431
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,000
because they were like, they
wanted to give their cats a

432
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,080
really good life, but they
couldn't because they had these

433
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,720
dogs.
And, and I, I only bring that up

434
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,240
to say that like, there are a
lot of reasons.

435
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,520
It's not just aggression.
It's not just poor

436
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,280
socialization.
It's not just you did something

437
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,320
wrong, though I do feel like
that is the case in a lot of

438
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,520
situations.
Just because we don't know,

439
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:55,320
we're not trained, we're not
very well prepared, honest to

440
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,520
goodness, like, you know, you
take a baby home, you take a dog

441
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,400
home, you take a cat home, you
get no training on how to do any

442
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,720
of this right And, and honestly.
We we've been.

443
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,880
I think there's people who, like
my grandmother, will never

444
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,920
forget that it's an animal.
In her mind, it's an animal.

445
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,800
Like cats are filthy.
They belong outside.

446
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,320
Dogs eat garbage.
They belong outside, right?

447
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,680
So like in her, she's like an
extreme.

448
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560
And then we have the other
extreme where most of us are on

449
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760
the people who love pets and
share our lives with them.

450
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,320
Is that where they're like our
babies?

451
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Yeah.
They're not our babies, they're

452
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,720
animals, right?
Like they're just like we are.

453
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,840
And when the second we start
accepting that they're animals

454
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,080
and our different species of
animal than we are the better

455
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,240
equipped we are to handle
things.

456
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,600
But when we are like, we are
that, that cloud that those pink

457
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,040
colored, those rose colored
sunglasses on where they're like

458
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,000
our sweet little babies.
They're not our sweet little

459
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,000
babies.
Like they have huge canines that

460
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,920
were designed to like tear
flesh.

461
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,520
And that's for both cats and
dogs.

462
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,800
And the bigger the dog, the
bigger the bite, right?

463
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,240
So like the reason why more big
dog dog bites fall on the bigger

464
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,600
dogs is because they have the
bigger mouths and the bigger

465
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,320
jaws and they make more of a
dent.

466
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,960
If we just, if we were to just
analyze all the Chihuahua bites,

467
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,480
they would talk about of, of
biters, right?

468
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,280
But that's not, they're kind of
inconsequential sometimes.

469
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720
And luckily a lot of people
don't suffer any like long term,

470
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,160
like with a cat bite, you have
to be super careful because cats

471
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,680
have so much bacteria in their
mouth.

472
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,280
And a lot of people with dogs,
it's not as bad.

473
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,360
They don't puncture as far.
So like it doesn't become like

474
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,320
that huge issue.
Even though you should always

475
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,240
seek veterinary medical
attention or veterinary

476
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800
attention if your dog gets
bitten or cat gets bitten.

477
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,400
But we're more scared of cat
bites than we are of Chihuahua

478
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,800
bites, even though they're about
the same size.

479
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,000
But then we're of course, super
scared of a pit bull bite or a

480
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,720
Rhodesian ridgeback bite because
these are very powerful dogs

481
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,600
that can really do some damage.
But all dogs bite.

482
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,440
All dogs bite for many reasons,
like you said.

483
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,320
I'm a pet first aid instructor,
and the first thing I say is you

484
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,520
want to get bit.
Start administering first aid to

485
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,880
a dog that's injured without
muzzling it.

486
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,040
Like you want to get bit.
That's a really good way to get

487
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,280
bit because one of the biggest
things we do is teach how to use

488
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,760
like a leash or something as a
muzzle to wrap it around the

489
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,240
mouth and do this and do that.
Or we set like in my classes, I

490
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,360
would sell these little just
like long felt things that you

491
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,920
could keep in your in your first
aid kit.

492
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,640
Like if you're hiking with your
dog and your dog gets something,

493
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760
some kind of puncture or
something, you don't go in and

494
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,760
start bandaging your dog or
putting some kind of antiseptic

495
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,800
on that wound unless that dog is
muscled because the dog that is

496
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,520
moved into pain or is in pain
will bite you.

497
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,280
Absolutely.
That is just one of the million

498
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,480
reasons why a dog will bite you.
It and and that brings up a good

499
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,080
point because you may not even
know your dog is in truth,

500
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,480
meaning they could be older and
experiencing arthritis.

501
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,000
They could have twisted their
leg and you don't know it.

502
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,200
Like there are a lot of reason
they could have something

503
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,640
internally going on that you
don't.

504
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,520
They can have cancer and you
don't know, you know what I

505
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920
mean?
Like there are so many reasons

506
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
why a dog could be in pain and
you don't even know and.

507
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,240
They're in pain.
That's why I think people do see

508
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,000
more bites as their dogs age,
because they start as like

509
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,600
little warnings and then they
escalate, not only because we

510
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160
continue to ignore them, but
also because as they get older,

511
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,720
their tolerance gets smaller.
Yes, absolutely.

512
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Right, like and they're not now
it's I have less tolerance.

513
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:53,560
I have more fear around my pain
or around my just like knowing

514
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,480
that I'm not as agile as I used
to be.

515
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,360
I have maybe cognitive decline
where I don't remember how to

516
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,960
manage this situation.
So like all of it just

517
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,360
compounds.
And now we see these old dogs

518
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,560
biting and the first thing I
would say, if your dog is old

519
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,320
and biting, go to the vet
immediately go to the vet, tell

520
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,520
your vet.
I was I was touching him here

521
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,360
and he bit me like the only time
that no, that Noah Titan and

522
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,760
Noah, I always I was confused
them Titan, my first love, the

523
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,080
love of my life, the reason that
I'm in this industry.

524
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,480
Titan, the only time he ever
snapped at me again, level one,

525
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,680
I'm going to call it a snap, but
it's a bite, was when I was like

526
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,960
touching his paw or something.
And I didn't cut his nails

527
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,520
because I knew he was super.
But I like I, I think I went to

528
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,840
like see if he they had like cut
it too short or something.

529
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360
And he kind of like was like,
whoa, whoa, whoa, don't touch

530
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,760
it.
And I hadn't even touched it

531
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,360
yet, but it was like don't touch
it.

532
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,320
And he had never done that to
me, right.

533
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,200
But now he was 15 years old.
So now there were a lot more

534
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,280
layers, a lot more reasons to
defend himself than there were

535
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,680
maybe when I did the exact same
thing and he was 5.

536
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,560
So we have to remember that
like, and then people get

537
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:12,160
really, they take it personally.
I did not take that personally

538
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,560
at all.
Like it did not mean to me that

539
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,160
Titan didn't love me anymore.
It didn't mean like, it didn't

540
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,480
mean that he's a jerk.
A lot of people put like a lot

541
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,640
of human emotions around dog
bites.

542
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,280
What they are is a communication
and it's something we need to

543
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,520
pay attention to, but it's not
personal unless we know we can

544
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,840
recognize like, I did something
wrong.

545
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,560
I put my dog in a bad situation
and then it's a moment of

546
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,440
self-awareness that you need but
it's not something you take

547
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,720
personally.
It's like, Oh my dog didn't like

548
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,240
that and I need to respect that.
But a lot of times I find that

549
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,400
after multiple bites people
start resenting the dog, which.

550
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Yeah.
Does not help the situation at

551
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,680
all.
No.

552
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,920
And, you know, again, it's the
psychology of humans and not

553
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,920
understanding, not, I think
that's not understanding like

554
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,680
what's going on with your dog.
And just thinking that very

555
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,720
similarly to like, you know, how
we, how so many people think of

556
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,000
like cats going outside of a
litter box as being like

557
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,240
they're, they're they're upset
about something.

558
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,640
They're trying to get back at
you.

559
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,440
You're like, no, that's not
what's happening at all.

560
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,640
And I think that's very similar
with, you know, dog behaviors

561
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,680
that people don't understand.
And so they're like, well, you

562
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,400
know, there's there's a problem.
They're being mean.

563
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,280
They don't like me.
They're they're angry about

564
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,680
something.
Well, yeah, they may actually be

565
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,120
angry about something, but
they're they're really trying to

566
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,600
communicate with you in the best
way they know how.

567
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,400
And they just may not know a
better way to to get that across

568
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,560
to you.
And like you said, the older

569
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,200
they get, the less tolerance
they have.

570
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,160
Same with cats.
Same.

571
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,480
With and I mean same with.
Well, yes, I'm telling you, yes.

572
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,320
I go to AI, go to an assisted
living community twice a week.

573
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720
My grandmother is an assisted
living and old people do not

574
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,920
hold their tongue.
They're constantly fighting

575
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,840
somebody about something.
Their tolerance levels are low.

576
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,920
They have to have things very
routine.

577
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,440
They have to have things the way
they want it.

578
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,480
So this is not just our pets.
This is just an aging thing,

579
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,920
right?
It's part of aging in any

580
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,360
species is where we become less
adaptable as we age.

581
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,720
We become less inhibited as we
age, and we often have less

582
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680
control of our reactions and our
emotions as we age.

583
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,320
My grandmother is like so sad
all the time.

584
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560
Whereas in the same situation 20
years ago, she might have made

585
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,400
the best of it, right?
So like, it's one of those

586
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,880
things where like she really
struggles.

587
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,040
And I've seen, I've seen couples
hit each other at assisted

588
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,800
living where I guarantee you
they may have had a toxic

589
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,920
marriage, but they weren't like
on a random day just slapping

590
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,760
each other with a, with a purse,
right?

591
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,719
So like, you know, people,
people expect so much of pets

592
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,400
when we're seeing it in humans
where they can't control their

593
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,560
emotions.
And if you've ever had like an

594
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,520
aging parent or relative, you
see that they start like cursing

595
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,040
and where you may have never
seen them cursing your whole

596
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,679
life, they start, you know,
being aggressive.

597
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,840
So they might have been the
happiest person on the planet.

598
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600
And that's usually because of
cognitive decline, some kind of

599
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,239
neurological situation, which
they can, we can actually notice

600
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,520
in humans because there are
changes to their behavior and to

601
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,760
their vocabulary.
And so they can tell you, I

602
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,239
don't remember that or I can,
our pets can't tell us what they

603
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,800
can and cannot remember.
So like, now we're just

604
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,720
guessing.
And that's why the older the pet

605
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,200
gets, the less I want them
around children.

606
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,640
Especially.
Especially if they've never had

607
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,440
children.
An old dog does not care about

608
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,800
your cute new baby or toddler.
They don't care.

609
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,720
They don't care.
They don't want to be besties

610
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:18,720
with it.
They don't want to take pictures

611
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:20,320
with it.
They don't want to lay in the

612
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,880
same bed with it.
They don't want anything to do

613
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,640
with it.
If your dog is the Super duper

614
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,800
exception, I'm sorry.
I'd rather you not know it.

615
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,160
I'd rather you.
Preserve this child.

616
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,240
To the point where you are like
militant around your dog and

617
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,520
children, especially if the
older they get.

618
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,840
Titan was I think 12 when Noah
was born, maybe a little, maybe

619
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,920
11.
And I can tell you it ruined his

620
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,160
life.
He was like, what have you done?

621
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,880
What are you doing?
None of my dogs.

622
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,480
I had four when Noah was born, 2
when Mila was born, and none of

623
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,640
them were really that impressed
with a new baby.

624
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,560
And the only one that I think
will be really impressed is if

625
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,160
you get a puppy once your
toddler or young child is

626
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,080
already a young child or
whatever.

627
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,160
And then of course a puppy's
going to love kids because they

628
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,760
have similar energies and
they're whatever.

629
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,800
But like, the biggest concern
for me with fights is always

630
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,560
pets and children.
And it's always the younger the

631
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,880
child, the bigger the even if
it's a small dog.

632
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,840
Like I remember there was a Jack
Russell that mauled a baby to,

633
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,720
you know, fatally mauled a baby.
And it was like, why was that

634
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,240
baby left?
Like where the Jack Russell

635
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,680
could, could, could reach it
because maybe he had never even

636
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,080
exhibited any signs of anything.
But like, that's why you are so

637
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,640
duper, super, duper careful
about pets and kids.

638
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,160
And and then there are kids who,
even if you supervise them, just

639
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,720
don't know how to deal with
dogs.

640
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,640
I've seen that happen multiple
times.

641
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,040
I've seen a friend of a friend
who like does not stop until

642
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,520
they get what they want from the
pet.

643
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,480
Like if they want the pet
sitting on their lap, they're

644
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,800
going to do it whether the pet
doesn't want to.

645
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,960
And if your pet, your kid is
still 12 years old doing that,

646
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,280
your kid has no business being
around a pet.

647
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,840
And if you're that way as an
adult, then you have some really

648
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,520
big waking up to do like the
pets are.

649
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,800
Aren't these pets our pets, our
dogs are not in our life to just

650
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,800
to do everything that we want
them to do.

651
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,120
And the more we push them, the
more we're going to see bites.

652
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:38,520
And if you see your dog is
biting, you have to know why

653
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,000
they bit.
And like with kids, a lot of it

654
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,720
is the resource guarding.
You let your toddler crawl

655
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,280
around and then they go in the
dog crate.

656
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,240
Ha ha ha.
Pictures, pictures so cute.

657
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,360
The dog is the kids in the dog
crate.

658
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,880
My kid this morning, my 7 year
old sitting right next to the

659
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,560
dog bed.
And I was like, I've told you

660
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,160
500 times.
And not just because of the dog

661
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,520
because it's covered in fur and
you're about to go to school,

662
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,200
but also that is her bed.
You have a million places to sit

663
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,120
down that sucks his bed.
Get away from there and you see

664
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,080
them on the on the dog bed, on
the dog, on the dog, on the bed,

665
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680
on the crate, in the crate with
the dog putting their hands in

666
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,320
the water bowl, putting their
hands in the food bowl.

667
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,240
And you're like of course the
dog is biting.

668
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,680
He has like 3 resources in this
house.

669
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,000
His bed, his crate and his and
is food bowl and that your child

670
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,880
is attacking all of them.
And so if you know, oh, your dog

671
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,800
has one time growled, make sure
your dog, your kid does not put

672
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,560
that hand in the food bowl
again.

673
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,920
Because that next time it's
going to be a level 1, and the

674
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,320
next time after that it's going
to be a level 2 until it gets to

675
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,040
who knows what.
Yeah, there was, since you bring

676
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,960
up the, the food bowl and the
resource guarding.

677
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,320
I, I mean, I've, I have worked
with dogs like that and it takes

678
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,920
a lot of time and a lot of
patience.

679
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,960
And, and I think it does work
better when you have older

680
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,840
children, if you have children,
because they need to be able to

681
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,680
understand not just that they
need to stay away, but why they

682
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,880
need to stay away because you
know, kid, you know, kids,

683
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,520
right?
They're, they're going to push

684
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,400
boundaries and always, I mean,
that's their job.

685
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,120
That's literally.
And they have, yeah, they're

686
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:25,560
learning.
And they're learning by making

687
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,680
mistakes.
Like you can tell your kid all

688
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,000
day long not to do something,
but they're going to do it

689
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,760
anyway just because not that
they don't believe you or trust

690
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,360
you, but they have like this
like almost innate need to learn

691
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,480
it on their own and be like, OK,
So what happens if I like poke

692
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,160
myself with this pencil?
Like, oh, it does her OK.

693
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,120
She was right.
Yeah, but I do.

694
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:53,080
So my late husband, his
daughter, he's always tell me

695
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,360
the story that when she was
young like toddler age he was

696
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,760
not home from work yet his
ex-wife fed.

697
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,720
The dog did not pay any
attention to what was going on.

698
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,920
The toddler went while the dog
was actively eating and stuck

699
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,920
her hand in the food bowl and
the dog literally like bit her

700
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,040
face.
She had to go to the hospital,

701
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,960
get stitches, all the things.
And they did decide to, they,

702
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,080
they gave the dog to a couple
that didn't have children.

703
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:33,440
And for me, like I understand
that I, I do feel badly for a

704
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,440
dog in that situation, like to,
to be moved from the only home

705
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,480
they've ever known, probably
into a new home for really,

706
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,200
honestly, in my opinion, no
fault of their own because that

707
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,280
child was not being managed
properly.

708
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:57,960
That child was not being taught
in like that was a very

709
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,280
teachable moment to No, we don't
There's a.

710
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,280
Reason why?
Like, where's the supervision?

711
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,040
We just take it for granted that
these are like little fluffy

712
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,320
little toys.
They're not.

713
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,080
Yet.
An environment like how easy

714
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,840
would it be to put up a baby
gate to where a toddler can't

715
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,160
even get to the area where a dog
is eating right?

716
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,480
Like that is the simplest thing
you could do if you are not.

717
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,760
And look, I'm not a parent so
I'm not here to say one way or

718
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,000
the other what a parent should
or should not do.

719
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,480
But like environmental
management is the easiest thing

720
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,160
you can do.
If you don't, if even if you

721
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,320
don't want to be a parent and
teach your child what what is

722
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,000
right and what is wrong, put up
a fucking baby.

723
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,840
I'm sorry, put up a baby gate.
I agree with you, I 100% would

724
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,440
put up the effing baby gate.
Like when after I had always

725
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,160
managed Noah and Socks, after
that resource guarding where

726
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,440
they were resource she was
resource guarding me.

727
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,680
I just walked out to the yard.
I have a big enough yard that

728
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,720
Chris was with Noah and socks
was like sniffing and then I

729
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,760
walk out and she's like mom's
here and then my son is like

730
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,520
mom's here.
And so they both came at me and

731
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,160
I saw her kind of glance at Noah
competition and I immediately

732
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,480
said this is getting tense.
Come get him and Chris.

733
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,960
My husband is neurodivergent and
a guy.

734
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,120
So his reflex time, I swear, is
so slow compared to like a new

735
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,040
mom who's just like, ready to
like, you know, Mama bear

736
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,880
everything.
And so he takes a second to

737
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,560
literally think through what I'm
saying as a neurodivergent brain

738
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,600
holder.
And by the time he reached me,

739
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,120
it had already happened.
And we were like, that was too

740
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,160
close.
Like that was too close.

741
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,080
That could have been horrible.
And even though we did

742
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,840
everything right, I noticed I
called him.

743
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,880
He came as quickly as he knew
how.

744
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,280
It still happened.
So from that moment on, we never

745
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,000
had them in the same room at the
same time.

746
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,520
Titan could be in with if he
wanted to.

747
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,200
But if we were going to like,
let's say Titan was laying down,

748
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,800
we wouldn't bother him, but we
would say, OK, Socks, let's take

749
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,600
you over here, put you outside
because she loved to sniff.

750
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,520
So we'd put her outside while
Noah was playing.

751
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,240
And then eventually Titan, the
second a noisy toy would get on,

752
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,680
like go on, he would just go to
the door so he could go join

753
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,640
Socks.
Or we would immediately just

754
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,960
bring everybody outside with
treats because management was

755
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,120
the only option at that point.
It didn't matter how much we

756
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,800
recognized her sign, how quickly
we moved.

757
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,720
It was too close for comfort and
it could never happen again.

758
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,320
And so I am all about the baby
gate.

759
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,760
We had baby gates all over the
house because also we have a

760
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,480
two-story house, so that helped.
So it's like, OK, so we're

761
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,040
upstairs, the dogs can be
downstairs and vice versa.

762
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,520
And then there's that baby gate
where I can let my toddler crawl

763
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,920
wherever he's wants to crawl and
I can maybe like put away

764
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,920
laundry and I'm not worried
about like watching everybody

765
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,320
interact.
So baby gates management and and

766
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,080
you don't have to have babies to
use baby gates like if you have.

767
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,640
I have baby gates, yeah.
I have two dogs before we even

768
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,920
became parents who did not get
along.

769
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,240
And so when we left the house,
only one could be left out.

770
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,240
And honestly, the one that was
the troublemaker was the one

771
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,880
that got created because I knew
Kira wouldn't attack the other

772
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:21,520
two.
But I didn't.

773
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,200
I didn't trust Socks to not
attack anybody, even the the

774
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,400
friend she'd had since six
months old, because I'd seen her

775
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,120
be unpredictable and reactive.
And I was like, just to be on

776
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,400
the safe side for everybody,
she's going to be created.

777
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,280
And she was 12 years old and she
was still created and it was for

778
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,080
everybody's safety.
And this was a dog that never

779
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,720
passed a Level 3 bite one time.
And still it was like one thing

780
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,760
I always say it will escalate.
It's not going to ever go.

781
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,080
They a dog that bites one time
is probably going to bite again.

782
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,400
Yeah.
And instead of going back from

783
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,680
A3 to A1, they're going to go
from probably from A3 to A3 or

784
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,520
A3 to A4.
Like that's what they're going

785
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:04,680
to do.
It's going to escalate.

786
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,520
It's not going to de escalate.
And sometimes the frequency gets

787
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,960
bigger because they get more
reactive.

788
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:17,280
Every bite is a reinforcement
that they have every right to be

789
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,360
upset and and scared.
I talked to a dog trainer after

790
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,320
the first fight that Sox and
Kira had and she was like, dogs

791
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,880
do not want to bite.
They don't want to bite.

792
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,440
They never want to bite because
a bite is an invitation for a

793
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,040
fight and they don't know if
they can win that fight.

794
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,880
So no dog goes in looking for a
fight.

795
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,640
They know they're better off
peaceful.

796
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:45,480
That's the a healthy dog with a
healthy survival instinct is not

797
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,360
going to bite Willy nilly.
They're going in for a bite

798
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,280
because they feel threatened and
because they feel like if they

799
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,200
don't engage, they're going to
get mold themselves, right or

800
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,680
they're going to get hurt
themselves.

801
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:02,080
And I think, I think it would
it, I think it's important to

802
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,160
acknowledge that yes, there are
horrible people out there who,

803
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:12,920
yes, do train dogs to fight.
And yes, a lot of these dogs can

804
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,160
be rehabilitate.
Not all of them, but a lot of

805
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:20,280
them can be rehabilitated and do
wind up in loving homes.

806
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,720
Often times those homes do not
have children.

807
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,880
But it, it is possible.
Yes, there are dogs.

808
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:35,040
Again, as Isabel just said, a
healthy dog that has healthy

809
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,160
boundaries that has never been
through like that kind of

810
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,160
trauma, they never want to go
out and seek a fight.

811
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,400
That being said, yes, there are
dogs who have been raised and

812
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,480
bred and really horrible things
done to them.

813
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,400
Yes, to guard dogs that like are
literally like trained to do

814
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,240
that.
Like, they have no discernment

815
00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:00,280
at that point.
But your pet dog, your pet dog

816
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,760
will never want to start a
fight.

817
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,880
It's like at the dog park, if
you see, you know, that dog

818
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,480
that's bullying everybody,
that's not a healthy dog.

819
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,920
That's not a dog that is OK.
And it's kind of like the bully

820
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,000
in the playground where you say
that poor child's probably

821
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,480
bullied at home, and that's why
they're coming over here

822
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,640
asserting their power.
And like, you know, once you

823
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,120
understand psychology, you're
just kind of like that poor

824
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,840
bully is being bullied and this
is what they're learning.

825
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,960
And so that the same thing
happened for a lot of dogs where

826
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,960
they, you know, maybe they're
being kind of like alphaed at

827
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,880
home, right?
Like submissive.

828
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,080
What is it?
The submissive roles?

829
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,920
What do they?
Call them alpha roll, the alpha

830
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,360
roll where they alpha roll them
and like pin them down to like

831
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,360
show them who's boss.
Like if that's, that's why we

832
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:56,960
are so against all of these like
force forward or forceful types

833
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,200
of training, because what you do
is you're teaching that that's

834
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,560
the norm.
And then if they're going to go

835
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,600
interact with another dog,
that's what they're going to do

836
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,120
to them.
So it's very dangerous to like

837
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,080
set those tones.
But we have 10 minutes left and

838
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,680
like we talked about management,
we talked about obviously dog

839
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,480
training.
Dog training is so important for

840
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,680
if you notice a dog bite.
Yeah.

841
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,680
And going to a dog trainer who
is positive reinforcement based.

842
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,680
I know that there are people out
there who will tell you some

843
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,720
dogs need force.
I am completely in disagreement

844
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:33,840
of that.
And I think that the dogs that

845
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,600
need the least amount of force
are the ones that are biting.

846
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,400
Like, please, let's not give
them any more reason to be

847
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,360
scared of the world in which
they live, to distrust humans.

848
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,320
I think you and I are always in
agreement on that.

849
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,520
Like we are not trying to beat
bites out of the dog like that.

850
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,680
Does that sound like ridiculous
or does that sound ridiculous?

851
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,040
Like I can't beat my child into
being kind.

852
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,280
That's insane.
So that's the same thing.

853
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,880
And then a good dog trainer who
is positive reinforcement based,

854
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,720
the first thing they're going to
do is muscle train.

855
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,760
That's the first.
And do not be turned off if your

856
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:17,280
dog, if your trainer says your
dog has a level 123, they need

857
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,360
to be muzzle trained
immediately.

858
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,560
Like if they say that, trust
them.

859
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,920
That is good advice so long as
it's done like properly where

860
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,200
your dog accepts the muzzle.
They have really comfortable

861
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,440
muzzles for these dogs.
They don't.

862
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,240
You know, you, I was talking
about like a like a ribbon for

863
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:36,120
like a first aid situation.
That's a temporary muzzle that

864
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,080
you just put on for like
addressing an injury.

865
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,960
The muzzles that they have now
that you can get them custom

866
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,120
made, you can get them custom
colors.

867
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,400
I mean, there's like a bunch of
you can buy them just as is for

868
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,040
20 bucks.
And it's like a, a cage muzzle

869
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,560
that's very comfortable and
breathable.

870
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,960
They could still open their
mouth, just nobody's going to

871
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,560
get hurt.
And it's really good too for the

872
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,280
dog that like thinks a walk is a
buffet.

873
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,040
Those dogs can wear those too.
And they can be so much better

874
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,400
off.
But like there are times, like

875
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,040
in the case of the person that
I, I heard about, I don't know

876
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,480
this person, they were told
there's nothing we can do.

877
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,280
So the dog trainer, whom I don't
know, I don't know what their

878
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,520
text techniques are, but the dog
trainer said my recommendation

879
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,240
professionally.
And I say professionally with a

880
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,000
grain of salt because I don't
know what this person's

881
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,600
qualifications are, but they
recommended behavioral

882
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,360
euthanasia.
Like the dog is a danger to

883
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,120
himself and others and must be
euthanized.

884
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,880
And I do believe that there are
cases when that is the key, like

885
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,320
when that is indicated.
But I don't know that based on

886
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,840
what I heard that it would be
the case for this family.

887
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,520
So I'm, since you're the one who
has worked with pets, with

888
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,760
parents, how do you feel about,
you know, having to make that

889
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,840
recommendation?
Yeah.

890
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,600
I mean, I personally have never
been in a situation where I felt

891
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,960
I had to make that
recommendation.

892
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:13,600
And I'm very grateful for that.
Not only because I feel like it

893
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,720
would be a really difficult
thing to have to tell somebody,

894
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:24,840
but also because I, I, I'm glad
that I've never been in that

895
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,560
position to be around a dog that
yeah, that I have felt that

896
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:37,840
absolutely.
But I, I can understand like I

897
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,680
have such a soft heart that I
feel like it would take a lot

898
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:47,320
for me to get there.
But at the same time, I do agree

899
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:53,960
that that if a dog's quality of
life is suffering, if there's no

900
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,760
way that you're going to be able
to give them a good quality of

901
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:01,400
life, that no one that there
isn't anyone that can give them

902
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:08,760
a good quality of life that it's
it's an option and like it.

903
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:14,840
It would be better, I think to
humanely let them go then for

904
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,400
them to live in a cage their
entire lives or for you to be

905
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,560
scared in your home for however
long that dog is alive or like

906
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,640
that you.
To potentially put another

907
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,040
family at risk.
Yeah.

908
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,600
Because I mean, I think we both
agree and we've talked about

909
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,240
this where rehoming is a really
great option like you have, like

910
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,800
Satchmo was rehomed back to me.
I rescued him in Louisiana.

911
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,560
He moved in with my sister in
Spain.

912
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,960
My sister recently had a child
and he moved back in with me.

913
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,000
But the reason I took him is
because she couldn't safely give

914
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,040
him to anybody else.
Yeah.

915
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,160
Like, who was going to take him
that would have as much

916
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,760
experience with him that he
already has, like an established

917
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,240
relationship with that wouldn't
put him over a threshold?

918
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,400
Because you're talking about a
dog that's super attached to my

919
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,640
sister, who's been with her for
eight years and whose life was

920
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,880
uprooted by a child screaming
every day, right?

921
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,440
Because, like, babies cry so
much and it's so stressful for

922
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,680
pets, even the most chill pets,
like, oh, God.

923
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,680
And so you're talking about what
then taking that dog who's in a

924
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,320
different country now because my
sister moved all of them to the

925
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,440
US for a while during her
maternity leave.

926
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,080
What do you just like hand them
over to some stranger and be

927
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,960
like, good luck?
Because now that stranger might

928
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,080
get bit and that dog might get
put down.

929
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,120
So when she started talking
about like, I don't think he's

930
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,840
compatible with my toddler,
which I completely agreed.

931
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,480
And I said before the toddler
even got here.

932
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:40,040
But then I met the toddler and I
was like, ah, ah, this is not

933
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,520
going to work.
I said the only she was like, I

934
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,320
might have to rehome him.
And I looked at her and I was

935
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,200
like, to whom?
Yeah, who are you going to give

936
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,760
this potentially dangerous dog
to?

937
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:57,360
The only person is me.
And if it doesn't work out with

938
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:04,400
my my kids, you're going to need
to know that there may not be

939
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,440
anywhere else for him to go.
Like that was the conversation

940
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,600
we had.
Because it has to be the right

941
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,520
family, maybe be with or without
kids, right?

942
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,240
Because like even, I mean,
obviously we don't want kids to

943
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:19,920
be mauled, but we also don't
want like young professionals to

944
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,600
be mauled either.
Like we don't want like retirees

945
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,840
to be mauled.
Like all the people who don't

946
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,360
have like growing kids, those
demographics.

947
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,120
We don't want them to be hurt
either.

948
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,240
We don't want neighbors to get
hurt.

949
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,840
We don't want lawsuits.
You know, you could lose your

950
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,640
house your whole life if your
dog mauls somebody.

951
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,080
Like you can get sued to the
point where you have nothing

952
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,160
left.
I mean, it's a huge risk to have

953
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,160
a dog that bites like that.
So like if it is not possible to

954
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:54,520
safely rehome the pet, like
finding a a house without kids,

955
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,520
like that's pretty simple to do.
I mean, like one day my kids

956
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,560
will move out and I could
potentially take like a

957
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,440
dangerous dog, quote UN quote.
And that's a spectrum, right?

958
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,360
Like depending on how dangerous,
because I think that I consider

959
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,400
Satchmo a little dangerous dog.
Like I think he's a little bit

960
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,000
of a dangerous dog, mostly
because he's unpredictable.

961
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,800
But if there is no other family
and like with Socks, I called my

962
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:22,920
ex.
I had I shared this in the past

963
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,920
that Socks and Titan I got in a
previous relationship and we

964
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,400
shared custody of them and when.
He.

965
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:36,040
When when Socks bit, when Socks
bit Noah back, I think I was

966
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,080
pregnant with Mila.
I remember having the

967
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,760
conversation calling my ex and
being like, Socks just bit my

968
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,440
child.
Like we had been in touch.

969
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,760
So he knew that I had had a
child and we really just like

970
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,560
updated each other.
I updated him on the pets

971
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,360
because they were with me now
and so he knew I had a child.

972
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,080
And he was like, I can't take
her as much as I would love to

973
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,080
because he adored her.
I have a dog with what was that?

974
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,600
What's that condition where they
they they throw up their food?

975
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,400
Oh that like.
Megasophagus, megasophagus she

976
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,480
has it was a female socks did
not jive with female with other

977
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,800
females.
She had like very severe

978
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,640
situation where she had to like
wear some contraption.

979
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,560
It was it was a big deal.
So he was like, I would love to

980
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,720
take her, but like, I'm not
doing that to my current dog,

981
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,520
right?
Totally understandable.

982
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,720
We both said, like, if anything
changes, you know, let me know.

983
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:38,360
And so like, my other choice was
management.

984
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,880
And so we did it beautifully.
It worked out great.

985
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,120
But like, if she had done
something like a level 4, Level

986
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,320
3, I would have immediately had
to make a decision because there

987
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,200
was nobody else who could take
socks.

988
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,320
Thankfully, I didn't have to.
But like I think that the level

989
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:01,600
of the bite matters.
I think your resources matter.

990
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,960
Like if you live in a big city
and you have a ton of support

991
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,040
and a ton of training and a ton
of trainers and you have really

992
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,600
great behavioral veterinary,
like a veterinary behaviorist

993
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,720
that you can work with.
I mean, there are only like 100

994
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:17,840
in the in the country, but a lot
of them do virtual now.

995
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,080
But like back in that day there
was that wasn't really an

996
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,120
option.
So I was really like between a

997
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,120
rock and a hard place.
So yeah, like I immediately

998
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:27,680
considered behavioral
euthanasia.

999
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:35,960
She was 11/12 and she had a bike
history and I couldn't find any

1000
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:41,480
place to re home her to.
And I said let's try management

1001
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,080
and if something happens, like
we are going to need to make

1002
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,480
some really hard choices.
Thankfully for us, that did not

1003
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,200
pan out.
But I have a client who had to

1004
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,360
behaviorally euthanize her dog
because she had a traumatic

1005
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,960
incident.
And since that traumatic

1006
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,320
incident, she got pinned under a
car and she just became

1007
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,280
completely, completely reactive
to everything.

1008
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,280
She just got so scared.
I don't know that they tried

1009
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,320
like an SSRI for the dog.
That would have been my

1010
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,160
recommendation to start with,
like, let's get her spider

1011
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,000
flight down.
Let's get her cortisol down.

1012
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,080
Let's let's figure out a way to
bring her down and and then

1013
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,280
manage.
But she had to say goodbye

1014
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,280
because she was like, I, I don't
trust this dog anymore.

1015
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,800
She's constantly biting me.
And she was also older, right?

1016
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,960
So she was like, I think that
dog was like at 12 and she was

1017
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,240
like, there could be something
else happening.

1018
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,000
And like now I'm scared of her.
I'm scared of my own dog and

1019
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,960
like I can't rehome her and so.
That's such a hard place To me

1020
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:44,880
it was.
It was a really hard thing to

1021
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,400
do, I think.
But what it when it gets harder

1022
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,280
is even when they're young, when
they're young, that's when it

1023
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,360
gets really, really hard because
that's, you know, they have

1024
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,920
this.
Huge amount of life in front of

1025
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,080
them that needs like this huge
amount of time that you need

1026
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,320
management and you don't know
like how much management is it

1027
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,800
going to get like worse as they
get old like and of course it

1028
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,680
probably not always but probably
is.

1029
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,360
If you don't educate yourself,
it will get worse.

1030
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:20,720
If you continue to allow your
dog to experience triggers, It

1031
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,600
will get worse if you stack
triggers like with socks.

1032
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,800
It was like the stranger and the
male truck and the this all at

1033
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,280
the same time.
It was trigger stacking.

1034
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,760
That's why she, I mean, and I
had told the dog Walker she

1035
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,480
needs to be on a super short
leash.

1036
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,120
I mean she was on a six foot
leash, but like I would shorten

1037
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,480
it to like 2 feet from me.
She was always right there.

1038
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,720
She did not get any any give.
And he gave her too.

1039
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,600
Much give and he didn't believe
me right like a lot of people

1040
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,040
don't take the warning seriously
enough and so a lot of people

1041
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,800
think I'm like super
overprotective and like you know

1042
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,920
doomsday but.
I only I am that way because

1043
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,520
I've seen it.
I've seen the results of taking

1044
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,880
risks and I don't like to take
risks for other dogs.

1045
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,840
And just this popped in my head,
so I want to mention it.

1046
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,880
I know we're already over time,
but this is another reason why

1047
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,920
you have to do your research
when you are choosing a dog

1048
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,440
trainer.
And in my opinion, and in

1049
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,000
Isabel's opinion, you do want a
positive reinforcement dog

1050
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,880
trainer because there are dog
trainers out there that may call

1051
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,480
themselves balanced or whatever.
And they will use methods like

1052
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:41,560
flooding that will at some point
the dog will freeze and they

1053
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,440
will take that and say, look,
your dog's not reacting anymore.

1054
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,560
Well, they're not reacting right
in that moment because they're

1055
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,960
frozen.
But you are just what Isabel

1056
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,840
said.
You are triggering them so badly

1057
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,000
that the next time you have no
idea what that dog's going to

1058
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,800
do.
That dog could have been in a

1059
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:06,360
level 1 and by using a flooding
technique, they could jump to a

1060
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,760
level 5 or 6 like like that
without going through the steps

1061
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,120
because you have done so much
damage to them.

1062
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,200
And so you just have to.
Put somebody in front of their

1063
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:20,960
like, their trauma and like,
yeah, like.

1064
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,480
Like if you're letting them
know, like, yeah.

1065
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,800
You know what, you're a SA
survivor.

1066
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,080
I'm going to put you in front of
your attacker without, you know

1067
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,760
what I mean?
And like expecting that to go

1068
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,520
well, like that's what, that's
the equivalent of what we're

1069
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,560
doing to these dogs.
You're afraid of small spaces,

1070
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,240
so you get buried alive,
correct?

1071
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:39,840
You know what I mean?
Like that's what that is.

1072
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:40,640
Let's.
Do that.

1073
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,960
Yeah.
Like, it's crazy.

1074
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,560
So a lot of us don't understand
and like I'll say this, like

1075
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:52,120
being in the dog in working with
dogs professionally and prepared

1076
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,800
me for having children and
having children has reinforced

1077
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:00,440
so much of what I learned about
dogs because there's so many

1078
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,200
similarities cognitively.
Like it's so similar.

1079
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,000
Like our brains work so
similarly.

1080
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,320
So you have to people are like,
but we're not talking about

1081
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,640
training children or humans.
We're talking about training

1082
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,840
dogs.
But like if you put yourself or

1083
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,760
your child in the position that
your dog trainer is recommending

1084
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,320
and you feel uncomfortable, I
would say red flag, red flag.

1085
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,960
If you wouldn't shock your kid
into submission, don't do it to

1086
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,760
your dog.
If you wouldn't, you know, hit

1087
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,480
your husband on the face with a
newspaper because he didn't, you

1088
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,000
know, put the toilet seat down,
don't hit your dog because he

1089
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,160
peed in the house.
These are all very like common

1090
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,600
things like if you wouldn't
spray your child in the face

1091
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,800
with vinegar when they, you
know, made it like spilled

1092
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,240
something, then don't do that to
your child or to your dog

1093
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,880
because he like counter served.
Those are the techniques we use.

1094
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,600
We other people use as like
totally normal dog behavior

1095
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,480
stuff of when we wouldn't do it
to human and are the differences

1096
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,480
between humans and and dogs and
cats when it comes to trauma are

1097
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,800
really really very there's very
little difference.

1098
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,960
Dogs do a little bit better
about recovering, but if they're

1099
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,920
being exposed to the same trauma
and trigger all the time, being

1100
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,800
hit, being shocked, you know,
the dog in the back is like

1101
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,400
threatening them through the
fence.

1102
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,040
Like if we keep just like
exposing them to the same

1103
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:26,920
trigger over and over again,
they're not going to forget it

1104
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:28,200
anymore.
Like, it's not going to be like

1105
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,000
dogs live in the moment.
No, that dog lives in fear of

1106
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,120
going outside.
That dog lives in fear of being

1107
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,600
hit.
That dog associates peeing with

1108
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,720
being hit.
So now the dog doesn't want to

1109
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,800
pee ever and is making
themselves sick, right?

1110
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,760
Like there's so much that we do
to dogs that we would go to jail

1111
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,440
for for doing to our kids or be
like, you know, CPS would show

1112
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,320
up knocking on our doors.
So if a dog trainer makes

1113
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,200
recommendations, even as
desperate as you are, because if

1114
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,400
you have a dog that you are, you
know, deciding whether or not

1115
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:01,800
they can live in this world, you
might be desperate enough to try

1116
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,560
anything.
But I would say, and I know that

1117
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,800
there's probably research to
back me up.

1118
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,040
I can't cite any of it at this
moment, but I would say that if

1119
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,520
you were to try the aggressive
methods, you probably end up

1120
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,080
euthanizing.
Like you will probably just go

1121
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,200
ahead and euthanize.
Just if you are at a point where

1122
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,880
it's either I use a dog trainer
that shocks my dog into

1123
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,120
submission, or I humanely
euthanize, please humanely

1124
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,000
euthanize that dog.
Because what you're going to do

1125
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,000
is put the community in more
danger by trying those methods

1126
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:41,440
and traumatize yourself that,
that all you're doing is signing

1127
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,520
up for paid trauma.
You're going to pay this dog

1128
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:49,440
trainer to train you how to
suffer and how to make your pet

1129
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,240
suffer.
And the end result is going to

1130
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,120
be the same or worse.
It's going to become a more

1131
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,960
desperate situation.
So, and, and, and a really

1132
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:05,080
trusted dog trainer who is
genuinely here for the, for the

1133
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,880
dog, the individual and the
community is going to be able to

1134
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,320
look at that dog and look at you
and say, I've exhausted all of

1135
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,600
the positive reinforcement,
we've exhausted the veterinary

1136
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,960
care, we've exhausted the
medication.

1137
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,680
We've, we've tried everything
and there is nothing left to be

1138
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,000
done.
This dog is not compatible with

1139
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,560
our world.
And as hard as it is, you and

1140
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,880
your family and the community at
large will be safer without this

1141
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:39,200
dog in it.
And as hard as it is for a dog

1142
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,200
trainer to tell you that a
reputable, truly dedicated,

1143
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,240
educated dog trainer will have
that conversation with you if

1144
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:53,360
they see that it is time.
And if they genuinely believe

1145
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,080
that it's just like your
family's not a good fit, They

1146
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,440
will also recommend like
rehoming like that's, that's

1147
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:05,880
that's what it is.
But I don't feel like we should

1148
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,600
get to that point.
Like we shouldn't get to the

1149
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,840
point where we're deciding on
behavioral euthanasia.

1150
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,960
Instead, I would like it to be,
let's start really paying

1151
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:21,720
attention to those growls to
those level ones.

1152
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,040
So we never get to those
conversations.

1153
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,880
That's really, if there's
anything that I've obviously a

1154
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,680
lot of people are beyond that
point now.

1155
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,440
But if anybody's listening who
has like a puppy or like a

1156
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,920
younger dog or like, you know,
you stumble upon this video

1157
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:39,880
because your dog snapped for the
first time and you're like a

1158
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,560
really responsible pet parent
and you're like, Oh my God, what

1159
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,440
does it mean when my dog snaps?
Hopefully the Google gods show

1160
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,600
you this and you say, oh, shoot,
that was OK.

1161
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,960
That was a level 1.
So now I need to work on this

1162
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,840
right now.
I need to figure out what caused

1163
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,080
it, what happened, what in the
mind of the dog?

1164
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,320
What dog trainer can I find in
my area?

1165
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,840
Michael Chicoshio is a
specialist in aggression.

1166
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,720
I really like him.
He started off as a balance

1167
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,560
trainer from my understanding
only uses positive

1168
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:13,080
reinforcement.
He is not super divisive so he

1169
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,480
will like work with.
He has had balance trainers at

1170
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,960
his conferences and stuff.
So I think he's gotten a bad rap

1171
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,280
that I may be speaking
completely out of ignorance, but

1172
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,520
from my understanding, there was
like some some controversy with

1173
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,560
Michael Chicoshio because he
invited balance trainers to a

1174
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,400
conversation and like the
positive only group was like,

1175
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,520
no, we shouldn't give them a
platform.

1176
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,600
But Michael Chicoshio has always
been the person that I refer to

1177
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,640
when there is like a level of
aggression that's that severe.

1178
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,760
Because he started as a balance
trainer, he's seen that

1179
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,480
aggressive dogs can be
rehabilitated with positive

1180
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,240
reinforcement training.
And he uses positive

1181
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,400
reinforcement methods.
He trains a lot of dog trainers

1182
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,360
to specialize in aggression.
And it takes a very special dog

1183
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:03,560
trainer to work with these dogs
that are levels 456.

1184
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,880
They're, I mean, I don't know
how many dog level bite, bite 6

1185
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,320
level 6 bite dogs.
Really engaged anymore?

1186
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:12,720
Like, I don't know that they
exist.

1187
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,280
I think a level 6 is usually
behavioral euthanasia

1188
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:20,600
immediately, but I think that
Michael Shikoshio is a great

1189
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,600
resource if you find yourself in
this situation and if, you know,

1190
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:26,920
pay attention to who's
commenting.

1191
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,760
Also, if you go on social media
and you see Michael Shikoshio,

1192
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,800
pay attention to who's
commenting and follow those

1193
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,439
trainers too, because a lot of
them are learning from him.

1194
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,640
They also have, you know,
experience themselves.

1195
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,399
It's not just Michael.
He's trained 1,000,000 people at

1196
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:44,439
this point.
So there are there's a big group

1197
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,439
of dog trainers out there that
is qualified.

1198
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,640
Are you going to go to a a dog
trainer that specializes in

1199
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,080
puppies for aggression?
No.

1200
01:08:52,319 --> 01:08:54,240
Are you going to go to Melena de
Martini?

1201
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,600
As much as I adore her, she's a
specialist in separation

1202
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,720
society.
Do not go to her for aggression.

1203
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,040
She wouldn't take you anyway
like her and her team would

1204
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,080
probably refer you elsewhere.
But just find a dog, a dog

1205
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:09,279
trainer that's that's positive
reinforcement based, but also

1206
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:11,640
specializes in aggression.
Because if you're really

1207
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:17,479
deciding between life and death,
you need to bring out like the

1208
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,040
big guns, which is not just like
any dog trainer.

1209
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:22,520
Yeah.
Absolutely.

1210
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,439
I agree.
And we are so over time, but

1211
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,920
that's OK.
I think we're going to kind of

1212
01:09:29,359 --> 01:09:34,640
continue this conversation next
week with a Texas A&M Veterinary

1213
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:40,359
Medical and Biomedical Sciences
article study showing that more

1214
01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:45,040
than 99% of US dogs have
behavior problems, and we're

1215
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:46,680
going to talk about that next
week.

1216
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,520
And if you have a dog and your
dog has a behavior problem,

1217
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,040
we'll probably be talking about
it.

1218
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,200
So have you read the article
yet?

1219
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,920
Does it talk about what the
behavior problems are like the

1220
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:01,720
top ones or?
Yeah, it's, well, it's the top

1221
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:05,640
categories are aggression,
separation and attachment

1222
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,760
behaviors and then fear and
anxiety behaviors.

1223
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,040
And they, they gathered all of
this information from the dog

1224
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,280
Aging project.
So if anybody is familiar with

1225
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,160
like Rodney Habib and Dr. Karen
Becker, they pull a lot of

1226
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,600
information from the dog Aging
project.

1227
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,440
So I think that's a really, they
have a pretty, a pretty good

1228
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:31,160
database of, of information on
dogs.

1229
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,440
And I think this is so this is
going to be something cool to.

1230
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,120
Well researched piece.
It's absolutely.

1231
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:38,840
Well, thank you guys for joining
us.

1232
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,880
If you have any follow up
questions and or comments,

1233
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,960
concerns, referrals, like you've
had a really great success with

1234
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,560
a dog trainer that helped you
with aggression cases, please

1235
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,520
tag them.
Let's keep the comments kind.

1236
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,880
You don't have to agree with us,
but you also don't have to argue

1237
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,800
with us.
So just be kind.

1238
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:06,480
I know dog training that's very,
people get very sensitive,

1239
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:10,560
people get very reactive.
So let's keep the reactivity to

1240
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,280
a minimum.
And if you're just mean, we're

1241
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,120
going to delete what you say.
So.

1242
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,400
All right.
Thank.

1243
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:17,240
You all right?
Yeah.

1244
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:18,840
Thank you.
We'll see you next week.

1245
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:19,480
Bye.