210. Are Pet Foods Really Safe? Experts Debate Industry Standards

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Welcome back, pet parent.
So excited for today's episode.

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We're doing something a little
different.

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The format is a little different
today, but I think it's going to

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be super, super fun.
I actually have two guests for

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you today.
We have BC Henschen, who has

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been around in the pet food
industry forever at this point,

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and Doctor Kathy Alanovi, who is
with Next Generation Pet Food

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Manufacturers Association.
Did I get that right?

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We're going to talk about pet
food safety today.

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This is something I really
haven't covered that much on the

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podcast.
I mean, if I think about it,

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like I've talked to Billy about
it, that's pretty much the only

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person I talked to about it and
on the podcast.

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And I'm just really interested
to get like your back and forth

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on this because I mean, as a
consumer, you know, I have my

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own opinions.
I want to hear what you 2 as

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professionals on kind of
opposing sides of the spectrum

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have to say about this.
So I'm going to welcome BC and

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Doctor Kathy.
It's like really, 'cause I

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thought BC and I were on the
same side.

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So all right, BC, where are you
coming from?

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Wow, where are you?
On similar roads I have really

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Jessica just touched on it.
I have found myself being a

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consumer more because I was
removed from the retail pet food

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world for a little bit, so I
started having a lot of

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concerns.
OK, so interesting.

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So what have you found?
Well, and let's start.

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Certainly a lot of this was H15,
the latest bird flu.

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That was certainly an issue that
started exposing a lot of

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things.
But let me back up a little bit

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and you know, I I'm doing what I
would say is the honeymoon

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period's over for RAW.
I don't understand why we don't

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have peer reviewed studies on
RAW.

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I don't understand why we don't
have more white paper on raw and

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I don't understand why we are
still getting the trade secret

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BS line.
Because and I'll tell you, I had

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a conversation not just two
weeks ago with the manufacturer

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and he said I can't tell you
where we're manufactured.

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I can't tell you who formulates
us.

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That is all trade secrets.
We don't want that out in the

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universe.
And I said, Brina or whoever

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knows exactly where you're
manufactured and if they wanted

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that facility, they would have
that facility.

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But we're still hearing that.
We're still hearing that from

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raw manufacturer.
Are you?

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You're muted.
I've lost her.

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Yeah, you muted her.
I didn't marry I I we had bark

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Fest and I was trying to make
the less bark noise because the

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four pounder sounds like 200
lbs.

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So that was a fresh food
manufacturer BC yes, I'm sorry,

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that's a load of yeah, I'm.
Gonna say still out there.

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For anybody listening and not
watching, I can't tell you how

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much I love Doctor Kathy's
faces.

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Like I just I feel like this is
can't play.

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Poker.
I'm looking in the mirror by my.

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Lack of poker face.
It is like in my tiny little

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inner circle, like our running
joke is that Jessica cannot

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control her face.
I walk around like I, I will

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walk around Super Zoo and my
best friend, I'll walk around

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with her and she'll turn around
to me and be like, I can feel

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your face behind me.
You need to chill.

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Beautiful.
I love it.

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So BC that's unacceptable and
I'm in totally meeting with you.

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I don't support that.
It shouldn't be a secret.

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Where's consumer transparency?
Our fresh pet, fresh raw, real

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pet food manufacturers need to
not be hiding because consumers

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have questions and you're not
going to sell your product if

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you're a secret.
People want to know.

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Well, and I could tell you that
one of those manufacturers, I

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mean, I don't want to get into
names, but there's a

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manufacturer that's a friend of,
I mean of the real food movement

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that is not 100% transparent.
And they still are able to kind

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of out that line where they give
a little bit, but they they

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aren't giving the whole story.
But let's back up.

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So I like to do because I know I
just hit you with a lot of

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things out of the gate and let's
take it step by step.

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I also am active in the cannabis
research involving dogs and I

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can give you Cornell has a study
on it that is a peer reviewed

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study as it relates to pain in
canines and the use of cannaboid

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products butchering some of that
those words, but that's what I

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do.
There's also a University of

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Colorado has a lot of research
out there that is again peer

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reviewed white papers.
So the head manufacturers could

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easily hang their hat and say
this is proprietary information,

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we don't need to give it out.
There's no federal regulation

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forcing us to give it out.
So why are we hearing that from

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real food pet food
manufacturers?

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Why are we not seeing why are
there not peer reviewed studies?

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Why are there not more
digestibility tests that are

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public?
And that's, that's one of the

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key things that we aren't seeing
is digestibility information

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released.
You got me.

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What do I know?
What I know is I don't have

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right here my hot little hands,
my answer.

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But I'm writing it down because
one of the things that we're

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doing at the trade association,
so next generation pet food

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manufacturers, next Gen. we
represent fresh pet food

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manufacturers.
So it's raw and gently cooked

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and it's some freeze dried and
stuff.

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We have been challenged with
that question.

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We have a lot of manufacturers
who have heard that from their

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consumers.
So I got to write this down

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because I have Old Lady Brain.
You want the peer reviewed

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articles there.
There are peer reviewed

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articles.
I haven't read them all.

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I haven't read lots of them.
I'm guilty.

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You know what I've done?
I said to a researcher that

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we're working with.
I said, would you put it all

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together for me, please?
And I'm at the putting it to

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waiting for her to put it
together and present it because

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there are over 200 articles that
talk about thank you

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digestibility.
But what I don't know is

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digestibility.
There, I wrote it down.

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There are studies that show
health benefits of fresh foods

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specifically in pets.
Digestibility is a really good

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question.
And so I'd have to say BC I have

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to get back to you and I got to
actually look at the literature.

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I commissioned somebody because
my plate is full, but you're not

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the which.
That was really lame, wasn't it?

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That was my lame cop out.
And it's like, man, he caught me

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right at the beginning with a
cop out response.

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There are studies and we are
looking at putting it together

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because a lot of our
manufacturers are challenged by

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consumers and veterinarians
because there's that perception

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by veterinarians.
If there are no studies, it's

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not true.
It's not that there are no

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studies, it's that they haven't
been put together in a giant

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doorstop.
Like it's literally the the book

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from Science Diet that we get in
vet school is literally four or

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five inches thick.
It's like don't and people just

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look at that and they go
credibility.

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Well, I could put any bunch of
blank page.

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We don't need to put blank pages
because there are studies hasn't

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been organized and so I'm
working on that.

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Can we have this meeting later?
Digestibility is an interesting

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topic because and I think the
majority of pet parents don't

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even know to ask that question.
And I think pet food

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manufacturers kind of take
advantage of the fact that pet

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parents don't even know to ask
that question.

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People like me who are out here,
and I know Doctor Kathy, you do

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this too, like working
one-on-one with pet parents.

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Like we see this.
We can see when we're working

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with a dog specifically, usually
dogs.

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Then we can and we're yes.
Yeah, we're looking and we're

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going, oh, we have a digestion,
we have a digestibility issue

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here going on.
But that and, and of course

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that's anecdotal, right?
Like, but that's where science

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starts.
It's one evidence what'll be

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interesting to see because how
do we define digestibility?

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Because if you take a giant bowl
of acid and drop in a bunch of

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oatmeal, boom, that thing
digests right off.

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What is that how it really
should work in this in the in

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the live animal, there are all
these hydrolyzed foods.

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They're pre digested so the
animal doesn't have to digest.

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Shouldn't their intestines
really be doing its natural

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function of digesting?
So great question BC it's on my

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list of things to do now.
Also, just want to throw in

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before we move on, I, I do know,
I, I did hear of just a person,

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just a person who is very
scientifically motivated and did

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her own test in a controlled
environment where she like

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mimicked with the pH of a dog's
stomach should be and did

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kibble, raw food, cooked food
and an insect protein.

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And the insect protein was
horrific.

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So I just want to throw that out
there.

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Really, I just want to throw
that out there.

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That's fascinating.
Yeah.

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No, that's, that's good.
Yeah, that's.

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Pretty.
There's a lot of, well, I won't

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say a lot, but a couple of those
insect protein companies.

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Actually I have some pretty good
digestibility studies with once

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again, you get into can we
compare one study to the next

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study to the next study because
they're all using different

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criteria and they're looking at
different micros and macros.

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And certainly over my head there
are a couple good pet food

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manufacturers that post that
information immediately and make

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it available to the pet parents.
But digestibility is just one.

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All right, pet parents, you
already know that I talk all the

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time about needing to stop as
much as we possibly can, feeding

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our fur babies garbage, for lack
of a better word.

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That's what we talk about here a
lot.

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And again, doing the best we
can.

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That is the message above any
and everything else.

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The more we learn, the more we
know we need to make some

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changes.
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You know me.

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You can always reach out to me
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I'm here to talk to you all the
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00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:57,880
I want to know.
Let me know about it.

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00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,080
To try Legacy Biome for your
dog, visit legacybiome.com and

229
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:10,200
use code TPPR 10.
That's TPPR 10 for 10% off.

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00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,800
You know, if we go back to food
safety and you can help me with

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00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,240
this there, there's a couple
things that again have become

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00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,800
really evident to me #1 and this
goes back to AFCO world.

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00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:35,200
But if I pay and actually do a
feeding trial with dogs and I am

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00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,640
a raw pet food manufacturer and
Jessica comes along and

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00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:47,040
basically makes the same food,
she doesn't have to do a feeding

236
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,600
trial but can say that she meets
the Yep guidelines.

237
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,560
So a lot of us know that you.
Did the research, yes.

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00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,440
Except can we say that her
formula and my formula are close

239
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,480
enough?
Shouldn't that be changed in

240
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,080
AFCO?
Even though who knows if AFCO is

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00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,880
going to exist in a month or a
year.

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00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,960
So let's talk about people food
though.

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00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,920
Let's talk people.
Food.

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00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,120
You and I can go buy four
different kinds of cereal off

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00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,960
the shelf.
There's zero safety with those.

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00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,680
I want to say 0 safety.
Safety studies.

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00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,480
So, so you're talking about
complete and balanced and

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00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,880
whatever, but all right, let's
back up to find safety because

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00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,560
in my mind, I was expecting you
to bring up bird flu and

250
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,960
salmonella.
And it's interesting you're

251
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,760
bringing up digestibility and
balance, so.

252
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,000
Let's fight safety and those
it's still on the paper we.

253
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,760
Haven't paid?
It all the way through the.

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00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:56,520
Paper.
All right.

255
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,160
In there, we're getting there.
OK, I don't know how AFCO came

256
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,480
up with all of that.
I have my personal, I should.

257
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,000
You're recording this.
I shouldn't say this.

258
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,000
All right, let's say this.
You guys have human children.

259
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,160
You have the two legged kind,
right?

260
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,600
I got one of them too.
I haven't killed it yet and it's

261
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,160
21 years old.
Never once in one day of my

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00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,720
daughter's life did I ever 100%
complete and balance her diet.

263
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,160
Ever.
OK, sorry I had to throw that

264
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,960
in.
She ain't dead.

265
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:37,120
So that is not me saying screw
it, throw it all out.

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00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,680
Balance is irrelevant.
It's not important.

267
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:46,480
That's me saying let's have
practical reality.

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00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,440
Practical reality is there are
vitamins, minerals, macro

269
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,000
nutrients, macro nutrients, you
know, protein, fat,

270
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,080
carbohydrates that everybody's
body needs.

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00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,920
Now, Speaking of everybody's
body, there's three of us here.

272
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,839
I guarantee you the three of us
eat differently.

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00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,720
I have eaten with both of you.
I know what you eat and we eat

274
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,119
differently and what my body
needs is different than what

275
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,160
each of your body needs.
So there is no such thing as

276
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,520
one-size-fits-all.
If there were, we would all buy

277
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,960
Wheaties and only Wheaties and
we would all have all of our

278
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,840
nutritional needs.
There's not.

279
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,320
I need different food than each
of you does and my dogs are the

280
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,120
same.
I have a herd and everybody has

281
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,920
different nutrient needs.
So we we start with the same

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00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,320
basic food and then we top dress
on top based on what each one

283
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,000
needs.
AFCO can't do that, AFCO said.

284
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:55,720
Here's the basis.
It's that silly food pyramid

285
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,360
that we humans have.
But that's basically what AFCO

286
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,760
is.
Like it or not, that's what AFCO

287
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,600
has done is tried to say here's
the basics and we could argue

288
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,120
about whether or not things
change in a weird way.

289
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,840
I get that.
But that's the foundation.

290
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,960
That's the basics.
So sure, BC if you do the

291
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,840
studies that show these three
ingredients are exactly what 6

292
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:30,880
dogs needs to make six blood
values not change over a six

293
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,600
month period, I see no reason
why Jessica can't take the exact

294
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,600
same three ingredients in the
exact same ratio and say your

295
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,600
study's good.
Now if she goes and adds four

296
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:51,120
more things, she need to do her
own study of 6 bugs over six

297
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,680
months, looking at six numbers,
it's minimal.

298
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,120
It is not detailed.
If you look at my body under a

299
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,000
microscope, I need different
things than you guys do.

300
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560
So.
Now, just a little side note

301
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,720
because we all know the late and
the great, I mean icon industry

302
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,960
Jacqueline, When I was at trade
shows or meetings with her, I

303
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,840
had my answers because at that
time being a founder of Answers,

304
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,800
that was her company.
I had my Answers Goat milk and I

305
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,800
walked around with my quart of
Answers Goat Milk containing my

306
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,560
Diet Coke bottle because,
because.

307
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,560
She because Jacqueline.
Would come after.

308
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,520
Me.
Yeah.

309
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,960
She's flipping over her grave
right now to hear that you

310
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,000
admitted to that.
I.

311
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,840
See, well, I, I fessed up at
some point, but yeah, I.

312
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,640
That's funny.
I.

313
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,120
Got the bad end of her several
times on my Diet Coke and I, I

314
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,160
will say till this day, I feed
my dogs far better than I feed

315
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,080
myself.
I mean, there's absolutely no

316
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,760
doubt about that.
But along that line.

317
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:19,200
When we do talk, so I think that
is being used more broadly think

318
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,200
companies are jumping onto
saying, hey, we, we basically

319
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,240
did a feeding trial because
we're basically the same.

320
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,440
And once again, there's really
no enforcement over that.

321
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,440
We all know AFCO doesn't enforce
anything like in the state of.

322
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,800
Because that's not their role.
We need to make sure that our

323
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,240
listeners understand AFCO sets
guidelines.

324
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,720
They are not the regulators.
The regulators are those who go

325
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,800
to AFCO.
It's each state.

326
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,920
You're right.
You're right BC it's a beautiful

327
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,560
question.
At the.

328
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,080
All I see is money.
In order to have that, it's how

329
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,480
much more cost it's going to
cost to the pet food

330
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,480
manufacturers who want to
register in each state.

331
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,240
If the state is going to
evaluate their food to that

332
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600
level, somebody needs to be
responsible for it.

333
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,200
You're right.
But who's who?

334
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,640
The state or the manufacturer or
the feds, I.

335
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,000
Would go back to see that's what
I'm talking about.

336
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,480
The honeymoon, That's the other
thing that I've heard so many

337
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,040
times.
Hey, we don't have money for

338
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,000
that.
We're small manufacturers, we're

339
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,880
groundbreaking.
We are doing things with pet

340
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,480
food that have never been done.
But again, that was aggregate 10

341
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,440
years ago.
I mean, when did my first

342
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,840
commercially available raw, I
started selling 18 years ago,

343
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,760
almost 20 years ago.
And then the second was Bravo, I

344
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,360
think again 20 years ago.
Those are the people that I

345
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,120
absolutely agree with and
answers for that matter, that

346
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,880
hey, we're breaking ground.
We don't have a lot of money

347
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,320
here.
People don't know what we're

348
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,800
doing, but here we are with, you
know, a growing.

349
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,760
The real food movement has grown
leaps and bounds in the.

350
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,080
Last still hearing that, that's
absolutely, that's fascinating

351
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,320
because my members are actually
doing the studies.

352
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,160
Well, and you're looking.
At putting it together.

353
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,120
Are the cream.
That's not there.

354
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,520
I mean, let's let's be real,
your members are the top echelon

355
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,120
that understand that they need
to be in an association with you

356
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,040
where a lot.
Of the rest are like you should

357
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,000
hear what I've been told.
Oh my goodness, we're we're

358
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,200
we're we're rabble rousers was
what 1 manufacturer said when

359
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,320
they stopped being a member.
Well, we think you're bucking

360
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,200
the system.
I was like, hello, what do you

361
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280
think we're here for?
Isn't that the point?

362
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,080
Right.
I want to go join my trade

363
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,640
association.
We want to go with status quo.

364
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,960
We want to change nothing but
wait.

365
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,200
We make raw pet food.
Anyway.

366
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,600
That's a very fascinating
perspective BC because I think

367
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,560
I'm over here in La La land
because I don't talk to those

368
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,240
people.
That's very fascinating.

369
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,160
And those people?
I'm writing that down also.

370
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,720
I feel like those are the more
mass brands.

371
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,280
I mean, when you're talking
about kind of the big in the

372
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,480
real food movement, those,
again, my opinion on Jessica's

373
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,040
podcast, my personal opinion,
you know, those largest real

374
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,680
food manufacturers are some of
the worst out there.

375
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,800
But those are the ones that have
the money to do the research and

376
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
are not doing it, or they're
doing it and they're not

377
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,720
releasing it because they don't
feel like they have to.

378
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,800
And.
They're also the ones that are

379
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,760
not interested in helping
anybody else.

380
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:14,640
Your members are going to be
open, which is a nice transition

381
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,360
into that food safety because
you can help educate me here

382
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,040
there.
There's a great store that I

383
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,480
love who has stopped selling raw
milk completely for pets because

384
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,720
he considers it too much of A
risk because of the lack of

385
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,640
cooperation between
manufacturers when it comes to

386
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:42,720
when a new risk is discovered
that you know, if a new risk and

387
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,160
they're all talking about one
that's in Kenya right now that

388
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,960
was found in raw milk.
But when a new risk is

389
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,320
discovered in the human milk
chain, USDAFDA, all those have

390
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,480
requirements for reporting and
then they report to the others

391
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,520
and so on and so forth.
I don't know that the same thing

392
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,840
would happen.
So if we find a new pathogen in

393
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,040
goat's milk, does that person
have an obligation to report

394
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,040
that to USDA or FDA under our
current guidelines?

395
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,800
OK, so do you specifically want
to talk bird flu or you want to

396
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,400
talk your mystery Indian
pathogen?

397
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,960
Let's start with birds, yeah?
I'm I'm more concerned about

398
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,120
what's out there that we don't
know about.

399
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,840
Well, the problem is because we
don't know about it.

400
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
We don't know about it until
people get sick, until people

401
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,600
get sick or animals get sick.
It's the same way.

402
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,240
We unfortunately found the
melamine thing forever ago.

403
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:58,200
So EU, the FDA and the state
departments of agriculture have

404
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:05,320
actually been very proactive on
the raw milk bird flu thing.

405
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:10,480
So far that's been documented,
it's been.

406
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,000
So the bird flu virus has at
least in the laboratory been

407
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,880
able to be seen to be present in
raw cow milk.

408
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,800
So because of that, the states
that the states that have raw

409
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,840
milk dairies that are registered
to make raw cow milk, they are

410
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,520
now testing for bird flu.
There has been zero evidence so

411
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,960
far that the same thing happens
in goats.

412
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,640
However, my understanding is, is
that the goat farmers are being

413
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,040
proactive and they are testing
anyway because they want to tell

414
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,600
the consumer we don't have it in
goats.

415
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,800
Knock on wood, you know?
So has anybody been sickened by

416
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,320
raw milk with bird flu?
No.

417
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,760
Has somebody been implicated?
Yeah.

418
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,680
Can you prove it?
No.

419
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,400
Bird flu.
What a horrible, horrible.

420
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,160
Because what do you do with it?
It's off and on.

421
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,680
For the last 20 years at least,
the United States has been

422
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,080
worried about what if bird flu
mutates and starts making people

423
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,240
sick Because we have historical
records, right?

424
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,200
Spanish flu back in whenever the
heck it was, was bird flu.

425
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,040
And the reason we call it bird
flu or swine flu is it's a flu

426
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:36,480
virus and it's naturally
occurring in birds or pigs and

427
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,760
it likes to do like do like my
it's a mixing bowl is what it's

428
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,640
called.
I make chocolate chip cookies.

429
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,680
I throw in some ingredients.
We change it around and my

430
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680
cookies change a little bit,
while the bird flu changes a

431
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,160
little bit.
And so in the mixing bowl, the

432
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,320
virus changes.
And what the government is

433
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,440
worried is that it's going to
change in this mixing bowl and

434
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,760
become really bad for humans,
like Spanish flu.

435
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,360
Of course, remember back in
Spanish flu days, we didn't have

436
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,440
closed sewage system.
We didn't understand we needed

437
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,280
to use soap and water and brush
our teeth and that we should

438
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,360
wash our hands and things like
that.

439
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,040
We do understand basic
cleanliness and hygiene now,

440
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,640
although we have a whole lot
more people in a lot less space

441
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,360
now.
So bird flu last year changed a

442
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:42,280
little bit and it made some cats
sick. 12 out of 75,000,000 cats

443
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,440
in the United States got sick
and died.

444
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,440
And I'm very sorry for the 12
cats and the 12 owners, but I'm

445
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,000
sorry, Look at statistics.
That is a microcosm.

446
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,320
It's not frozen cats.
Holy cow, could you imagine?

447
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,200
No, it's 12 cats and nobody
wants that for their cat, but

448
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,040
it's being misrepresented as
God.

449
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760
They're all going to die, right?
We don't want it to mutate and

450
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,960
become that.
We certainly all lived whatever

451
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,240
we lived with COVID, and nobody
wants to go through that again.

452
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,480
And so that's what government is
trying to do, is protect us from

453
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080
ourselves.
But we also need to be able to

454
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,240
live life.
And there's an element of making

455
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,800
a decision for yourself with
government helping enough.

456
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:40,000
So OK, go back to raw milk.
You know it could be dangerous

457
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,680
so put a sign on it and then if
right, sushi.

458
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,840
You guys eat sushi?
BC doesn't.

459
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Maybe sushi?
You do it all.

460
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,480
That you eat sushi with your
Diet Coke?

461
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,000
No, BC doesn't need sushi, but
there's a warning at the sushi

462
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,400
restaurant.
Sushi restaurants are doing

463
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,600
great even though we could get
sick.

464
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,920
Right.
And as immunocompromised that I

465
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:07,920
am.
Right.

466
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,720
I'm a little bit more.
You're going to be more

467
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,200
precious.
You should be.

468
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080
But I'm not more cautious.
I'm more aware, but I'm not more

469
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,680
cautious.
I mean, you've been out to.

470
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,440
My you drink Diet Coke.
Yeah, and I got horses and I,

471
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,720
you know, I fall into a pile of
manure and I go on.

472
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:35,440
Yes, I dropped, but my whole
where this came up is and and

473
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,960
this goes back to one of your
earlier rants.

474
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,680
People do not rotate their pets
food and and we've learned that

475
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,920
we've learned that they'll even
make the transition onto a fresh

476
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,400
food and then that's all they're
gonna feed by golly, because

477
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,440
their dog is doing well with it
and that's the end of that.

478
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,200
So.
They're lazy.

479
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,720
I am.
I don't rotate my food.

480
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:07,040
So I think the manufacturers do
have responsibility make sure

481
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,400
that food is safe because again,
statistically it's shown that

482
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,400
consumers do not treat raw pet
food the same way as they treat

483
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080
their raw chicken to find that
they assume.

484
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,200
That to me, because I disagree
based on our assessment of

485
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,440
salmonella that this many
humans, it's a zero.

486
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,800
Those who can't see it, it's a
00 humans are reported in the

487
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,640
CDC database of having been
sickened by raw pet food. 0

488
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,600
where we've had humans die from
kibble.

489
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,320
From Kibble.
Right, children.

490
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,120
No, I'm not arguing that point
at all, but it's shown that

491
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,000
again.
So let's let's say something

492
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,920
comes through and it's Rift
Valley is the the pathogen that

493
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,600
they found that?
No, but they're worried that

494
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,720
that's going to come over here,
of course.

495
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,120
But if something like that comes
up and gets into the pet food,

496
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,400
and those manufacturers are not
testing for that, nor do they

497
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,520
have the capabilities because,
once again, they don't have the

498
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,720
money for that.
We're a small manufacturer.

499
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,080
How can you expect us to test
for all these things?

500
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,200
Do they bear any accountability
if they're food?

501
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,600
But let's even simplify it.
Let's go E coli, let's go

502
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,480
salmonella.
Now, granted we don't have any

503
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,320
hospitalizations as we did.
I mean, I was around in the big

504
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,920
2007.
So when you mentioned 15,000

505
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,640
dead cats or whatever, I was
selling pet food and people had

506
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,440
cats dying in those numbers and
they didn't know to test for

507
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,560
that, that altered ingredient.
Nobody was testing for that.

508
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,120
In fact, they specifically were
making sure that it couldn't be

509
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,240
tested for.
But you put that same situation

510
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,520
out to a small real food
manufacturer, they're going to

511
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,240
say we don't have money to test
for any of.

512
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,880
Them So where are you buying
your ingredients?

513
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:15,480
Many of our members by USDA
sourced and passed meats.

514
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,600
So OK, let's talk several
different diseases.

515
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,280
Bird flu, for example, like
salmonella is considered

516
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,760
inherent in the animal.
OK, Salmonella is inherent in

517
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,040
poultry.
That's court cases.

518
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,920
It's by definition.
The USDA allows a certain level

519
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,160
of salmonella in the poultry.
That exact same poultry goes to

520
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,040
our manufacturer's food.
It's the exact same food.

521
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,160
It should be handled the same.
We humans are not meant to eat

522
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,560
it because it takes far too long
to go from our mouth to our butt

523
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,800
hole and we get sick.
Dogs and cats mouth the butt

524
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,680
hole really fast.
Boom.

525
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,440
They push it through.
If there's a little bit of

526
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,120
salmonella, if they have a good
intestinal system, they don't

527
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,480
get sick.
And it is based on good

528
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,440
intestinal system.
So there, that's the you have

529
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,760
helpers.
Cats.

530
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,360
Have helpers.
So that's salmonella.

531
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,960
We don't know enough about bird
flu yet to say that, but our

532
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,280
manufacturers, our members of
Next Gen. are using USDA sourced

533
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,199
and past poultry meat.
It has bird flu in it.

534
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,560
It has bird flu in it.
So it's the responsibility of

535
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,080
the USDA to be testing for it,
and they are, but it has bird

536
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,040
flu in it.
And so now it's being sent out.

537
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,600
And So what happens when the FDA
is now regulating something that

538
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,800
was passed by the USDA?
You've got 2 agencies with two

539
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,360
different standards and yet pet
food is for pets and the FDA is

540
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,560
regulating as if it's for
humans.

541
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,400
So this is how swine, African
swine fever and your Rift Valley

542
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,760
fever and you know, there are a
bunch of other potential foot

543
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,920
and mouth disease, hoof and
mouth being different diseases.

544
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,120
They're all being monitored.
And if you're importing meat,

545
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,120
they should, they're supposed to
be inspected before coming in.

546
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,400
So the inspection agencies are
supposed to be checking for

547
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,360
these agents before it's allowed
in the US.

548
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880
The manufacturer shouldn't
actually have to check for these

549
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,120
things until all of a sudden
there's a worldwide outbreak.

550
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,560
So bird flu has kind of changed
and the FDA changed

551
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,080
manufacturers responsibilities
in January when they put out

552
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,720
their policy guidance saying we
just need you to write about it.

553
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,200
Basically that's what they said
was you need to think about bird

554
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,800
flu.
It needs to be in your food

555
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,680
safety plan.
That's all the FDA said.

556
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,320
Then they're the field agents
who then took it to the next

557
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,000
level and said, Oh my God, we
found one live virus recall,

558
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,040
recall, recall.
Even though that same meat, the

559
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:24,040
companies that had the recall
bought USDA past meat the USDA

560
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,600
had already inspected and said.
So can I maybe I'm miss

561
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:34,000
remembering this wasn't the
testing being used for bird flu

562
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:41,080
in in pet Well, anywhere it's
me, it's it's my dog wasn't.

563
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,120
It it was the.
PCR testing right that it it

564
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,440
wasn't differentiating between
live and dead.

565
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,800
PCR doesn't differentiate live
and dead.

566
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:56,040
PCR says DNA is present and it
doesn't matter if the DNA is

567
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,160
alive or dead, according to PCR,
it just says yes.

568
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,320
Then the until bird flu, the
gold standard had been virus

569
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,320
isolation, which is send it off
to the lab and the lab tries to

570
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,560
create and grow a live virus.
I mean, it's not really living

571
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,880
because it's a virus, but if
it's quote live, it can

572
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,800
replicate.
It can then go on and infect

573
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,640
something else.
And we were saying, prove it,

574
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,320
prove it, prove it until the FDA
comes out and says, you know

575
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,920
what, once it's in this food
thing, the virus isolation test

576
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,800
is not very accurate.
True, Don't know.

577
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:49,120
So then we got whole genome
sequencing, which is still a

578
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,240
piece of DNA, just very
detailed.

579
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:58,600
And allegedly what was found in
the food was allegedly found in

580
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,680
the infected animals.
And yet when the manufacturer

581
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,280
asked for the data, the
manufacturer was never given

582
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,160
both pieces of information.
So the couple of manufacturers

583
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,240
who did recall did it out of the
abundance of caution, just

584
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:17,560
because they love animals and
they didn't want to make cats

585
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,520
sick.
And so unfortunately and and

586
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,520
these companies all but I'm I'm
I am not lying the USDA past and

587
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:31,920
sourced meat.
So and I'm sorry for the 12

588
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120
cats, but it's 12 out of
75,000,000.

589
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,440
That's very low statistics, very
low statistics.

590
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,760
No one wants to be a statistic.
I get it.

591
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,720
I'm going to be ashed.
Like when when most consumers

592
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,120
think of food safety, they are
thinking of salmonella, E coli,

593
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,720
listeria, right?
And there is a 0 tolerance

594
00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:00,040
policy for that in raw pet food,
right?

595
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,920
Right.
On the FDA?

596
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,240
OK, right.
Keep going.

597
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,680
And then I, I might, I might
more carefully box in what you

598
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,520
just said.
Go ahead.

599
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,760
OK, Yeah, well, that's that's my
hope is that you do more

600
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,640
carefully box that in.
I'm sure BC has plenty more

601
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,440
questions.
My biggest question and I don't

602
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,200
think, I don't know that we can
answer this, but like as what I

603
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,560
consider myself to be an
educated consumer, I bigger,

604
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,080
bigger concern.
My concern isn't with

605
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,880
salmonella, E coli and listeria.
I just don't have that concern

606
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,440
with what I feed my pets.
What my concern is why have the

607
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,480
recalls in kibble over the past
handful of years decreased so

608
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:40,400
significantly?
Because.

609
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,480
They're not being tested.
I know what I like, I just I

610
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,280
feel like there's this false
sense of security being created.

611
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,800
Really.
See and.

612
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,120
That's what it sounds like.
Go ahead BC.

613
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Now keep in mind, I mean that
food manufacturing is is I mean

614
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,040
and that's my thing and it and
it's kibble, I like it.

615
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,720
I've been in plants, I've made
food etcetera, etcetera.

616
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,360
I would say that testing has
gotten better at the

617
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:18,680
manufacturing side of it.
Manufacturers are to have more

618
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,360
tests at their availability that
they're in lab can do where a

619
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,640
lot of times those tests had to
be sent out and.

620
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,000
That the ingredient suppliers
are also doing more testing

621
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,000
because they're tired of getting
refused loads at the dock door.

622
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,680
When my friends in the business
go out there and they core the

623
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,240
grain card or whatever they do
and they come back and say,

624
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,480
yeah, we're not taking this
load, go on with it.

625
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,760
So I would say it's a
combination of all of it.

626
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,920
Certainly the government doesn't
have money to do testing.

627
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,000
And I would say most pet food on
the market, regardless if it's

628
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:03,960
kibble or raw or fresh, most of
it has not been tested by a

629
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,000
government.
We are relying completely on

630
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,760
manufacturers.
And most of the time you're

631
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
talking about Co Packers.
And once again, those Co Packers

632
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,680
are going to be so heavy on
their ingredient suppliers.

633
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,000
If you send me a bad load twice,
we're never doing business with

634
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,920
you again because you have held
up everything.

635
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,000
So those it's gotten a lot more
stringent on the manufacturing

636
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,080
side.
Which is what the Food FISMA

637
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,360
Food Safety Modernization Act
was supposed to do.

638
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,720
They were supposed to put this
is every manufacturer is

639
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:42,280
supposed to have a food safety
plan.

640
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,880
Well, my sarcastic remark,
because I'm good at those ever

641
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,600
since the beginning, was that's
good manufacturing practices.

642
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,040
And that's what manufacturers
should have been doing all along

643
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,560
is you should have a food safety
plan.

644
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,440
You should go, well, there's a
light bulb right above this

645
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,120
machine.
Gosh, it could break.

646
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,720
Why don't we put a cage over it?
And that goes in your food

647
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,680
safety plan.
And so this, this is good food

648
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120
safety.
The Food Safety Modernization

649
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,240
Act came out and one of the
things that's supposed to happen

650
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,320
is every food manufacturer,
people or pet food is supposed

651
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:22,920
to be inspected every five
years.

652
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,800
Everyman thinks they don't have
money now and they want to

653
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,040
balance a budget.
They have never been able to

654
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,880
inspect every manufacturer.
I have manufacturers who have

655
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,120
never been inspected but the
opposite side of that exact same

656
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,640
coin.
Flip it over and the other side

657
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,560
is once you're considered a bad
player in quote marks from the

658
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,920
FDA.
As in you come on their radar

659
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,320
once, you never get off their
list.

660
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,640
If you come on their radar once,
they will inspect you year after

661
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,560
year without 0 forgiveness.
They are going to regulate this

662
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,240
one company into compliance.
But if nobody else has, you know

663
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,560
if other 15 companies haven't
ever been inspected and don't

664
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,080
come up on their radar, they
never get inspected.

665
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,520
And so that's not really what
FISMA was supposed to be doing.

666
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,520
The manufacturers absolutely are
responsible for their safety and

667
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,000
I agree BC there are some great
tests that the manufacturers can

668
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,880
now look for the pathogens, the
salmonella, the listeria

669
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,600
monocytogenes because that's the
only bad listeria.

670
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,560
There are a whole bunch of other
ones that don't matter.

671
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,560
Coliola deck, which is the
shigga toxin, it's another E

672
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,280
coli.
These are the ones that make

673
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,680
people sick.
And that's what we're worried

674
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,720
about.
Make people sick from pet food.

675
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,520
None of you people should be
eating pet food, should eat

676
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,760
people food.
Pet foods for pets.

677
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:04,800
It needs to be safe.
But dogs and cats with a normal

678
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,800
healthy system can eat
salmonella.

679
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,240
I cannot.
I get sick.

680
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,040
They might get a little bit of
soft poo tomorrow and then be

681
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,880
fine and then go eat the cat
poop and get soft poo that day

682
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,040
too.
So there are a lot of safety

683
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,000
things in place now.
OK.

684
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,320
How come more cable companies
aren't getting in trouble?

685
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,800
So how long did it take for the
government to figure out

686
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,680
melamine?
Long time because it hadn't been

687
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,840
identified, so they didn't know
how to search for it.

688
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,880
And I think the only reason they
found it, boy, talk about the

689
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:49,480
good and the bad, is because
animals continued to die.

690
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,480
It was awful.
Think back a year and a half

691
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,360
ago, one of the big
manufacturers was implicated in

692
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,480
a lot of animals with nasty
bloody poo and some deaths and

693
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,760
stuff.
And the government did a bunch

694
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,240
of research and they never found
anything.

695
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,200
And I know people who did
private investigation trying to

696
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,440
find, trying to find, couldn't
ever find anything and animals

697
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,400
died and there was never an
announcement.

698
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,400
There was never a public health
for pets warning and humans

699
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,000
weren't sick.
It's awful a lot.

700
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,480
If we go back back to melanin
and correct me if I have this

701
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,120
wrong, but that was discovered
by a manufacturer that wasn't

702
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,200
even government that.
Was it?

703
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,600
Well, that's what I have always
heard.

704
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Now again, it was one of the big
5 at the time.

705
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,400
But yeah, it was.
It was discovered there first

706
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,760
and then of course confirmed.
OK.

707
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:55,360
That was I was not.
I was fresh out of vet school

708
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,000
and still recommending food I
would never recommend anymore.

709
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,200
Right.
I know better I know better now

710
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,320
I know better.
I've had more education than

711
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,280
what they force fed us in vet
school.

712
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,000
So that's that's good info BC I.
Don't know listeria.

713
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,280
The problem with the listeria
again if I'm I'm correct is it's

714
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,360
all about the lab.
I mean, the manufacturing plant

715
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,800
listeria, you really need to be
checking in your facility, not

716
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,600
necessarily in the food because
it can really be rampant and

717
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,640
you'll never find it in the food
because it can hide in little

718
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,400
pockets.
It's a where you catch.

719
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,800
Yeah, so.
These things that all bacteria

720
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,600
are that way.
I mean, the so is the flu.

721
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,720
It's it's all that way.
Yeah.

722
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,640
And, and for the most part,
Listeria monocytogenes is

723
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,920
considered to be a contaminant.
It likes refrigeration, so it

724
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,480
grows in the fridge, doesn't
grow in the freezer, and it does

725
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,240
not grow at room temperature.
But if you kill every other

726
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:12,080
bacteria in that pile of meat,
Listeria goes ha ha, baby, put

727
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,160
me in the fridge, I am going to
grow.

728
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,600
And it makes humans sick again.
Don't eat the dog food.

729
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,960
Don't eat the dog food and wash
your hands please.

730
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,320
Wash your hands and wash the dog
dish.

731
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,200
Yeah.
Don't leave it on the floor

732
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,400
because the three-year old
children go look, Fluffy eats

733
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,640
out of this.
Let's pretend let's have tea

734
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,200
because that's what kids do.
So parenting is protect our kids

735
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:43,360
and you know, teach our kids
from the beginning, raw pet

736
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,960
food, raw chicken, wash your
hands, cut your veggies, then

737
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,680
your meat.
Don't do your salad after the

738
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,440
chicken.
We've been told good food

739
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:01,280
handling for decades for people
food the exact same good food

740
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,800
handling training.
Good food handling is what has

741
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,160
made humans have much less
disease.

742
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,320
Because now we know you cut your
lettuce before you cut your

743
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,760
chicken, wash your cutting
board.

744
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,360
I got 6 once for meat, once for
veggies, once for onion.

745
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,440
Nothing fruits on the onion
board.

746
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,320
I will yell at you when my
cantaloupe tastes like onions.

747
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,040
But that's that's how we learned
things.

748
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,520
And there was a period of time
when people washed their meat.

749
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,280
And now the researchers are
finding that when people wash

750
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,280
their meat, they're actually
sprinkling bacteria all over the

751
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,160
sink.
Right.

752
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,760
No, you take the hose and you
spray it down.

753
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,040
You know, and actually
everything that you just talked

754
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,200
about by statistics, you should
be doing with kibble.

755
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,280
You should kibble absolutely.
You should be washing your bowl,

756
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,880
you should be washing your hands
after handling that kibble.

757
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,600
There's more chance of a
contaminant in that kibble than

758
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,560
there is that fresher raw food.
So.

759
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,320
OK, with fresh food in general,
are, you know, manufacturers are

760
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,960
using safety measures, some that
I can name off the top of my

761
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,880
head, some are being cooked,
some are using HPP, some are

762
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,040
using bacteriophages, some some
are doing test and hold, some

763
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,120
are doing multiples, you know,
including test and hold.

764
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,400
So I'm just I'm curious BC like
where, where are the

765
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:38,000
shortcomings that you're seeing?
Don't think I'm rapidly trying

766
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,720
to list manufacturers in my head
there's not enough test and hold

767
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,400
happening in the real and fresh
food movement.

768
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,000
I do not think enough.
In fact I don't think most of

769
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,160
the manufacturers.
Now again, there are so many of

770
00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:00,120
them, but test and hold is not
being done enough in my opinion

771
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,280
and I'm waiting on deck Kathy
because she should know more

772
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,160
than I do.
I'm going through my list in my

773
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,360
head just like you just did.
Go tick, tick, tick, tick.

774
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,640
There are a good number of
manufacturers who rely on the

775
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,400
supplier.
I think that's a problem too,

776
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,680
because in fact.
It's for E coli O157H7 is it

777
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:29,200
ultimately went back to the
farm, the feed lot, and when the

778
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,480
producer of the beef stopped
providing deadly E coli

779
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,880
contaminated meat, everybody
downstream always protected.

780
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:47,200
We look at now again, I, I hate
to mention a kibble, but Natura

781
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,880
Pet Products was a great
company.

782
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,360
It was one of the kibbles that I
did recommend at the time.

783
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,160
Now, this was 20 years ago, darn
near 1518 years ago.

784
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,800
And when they got bought out by
Procter and Gamble, which

785
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,720
Procter and Gamble killed that
brand and it's not even being

786
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,600
made anymore.
But anyway, when they bought it,

787
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,400
they stopped test and hold and
they stopped test and hold

788
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,160
because they brought in their
proprietary kill step.

789
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,760
Procter and Gamble had a
proprietary kill step and I

790
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,480
toured that plant because I made
a big thing in Indiana.

791
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,440
I threw all my Natur out on the
curb, donated it to the food

792
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,320
shelters and I said I'm not
going to sell this food even

793
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,200
though it's my number one food.
And it got picked up by me.

794
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,320
A great vice president.
He's no longer with the company,

795
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,160
with Procter and Gamble called
me up and said I will fly you to

796
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:53,000
that plant and show you what's
different and show you anything

797
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,120
you want to see.
And I went to that plant and I

798
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,640
asked about test and holding.
They said we don't do that

799
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,520
because of our proprietary kill
step.

800
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,760
And I said that's wonderful, but
there's a huge problem there.

801
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:10,040
About 3 months later, they had
the first massive recall at the

802
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,600
end.
Problem with that was it was

803
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,080
being contaminated by workers
after the kill step.

804
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,560
That's the problem with relying
on your manufacturers or your

805
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,680
ingredient suppliers is because
it's going to get contaminated

806
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,720
in the manufacturing process,
which is why test and hold, in

807
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,680
my opinion, should be industry
standard.

808
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,760
You are.
Nobody cares about my opinion.

809
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,000
You're 100% right.
And even even on HPP product,

810
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:46,120
you know, very often on HPP, it
goes back to the after it's been

811
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,480
processed, it goes back to the
manufacturer and they often

812
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,440
repackage it.
Boom, there's your

813
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,160
contamination, people food and
pet food.

814
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,280
There's a lot of people food
that's HPP that people don't

815
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,880
realize about anyway.
Agree 100% BC and you're right,

816
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,400
not everybody does test and
hold.

817
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,440
Yeah, and excuses.
The excuses are, well, it caused

818
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,520
a lot of storage.
I know.

819
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,680
How much does a recall cost you?
I hear you loud and clear on

820
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,520
that one.
Yeah, I'm writing that down.

821
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,840
Got my note maker.
She's taking a lot of notes from

822
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:22,800
you today.
This is beautiful.

823
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,400
And I'm good.
And I, I'm kind of backing off

824
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,680
because, I mean, we've hit that
hour mark or so and I want to

825
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,080
make sure Jessica gets all her
questions.

826
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,480
What are you talking about?
Wait, does everybody?

827
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,520
Listen to three hour podcast.
I mean.

828
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,200
Sorry, but I listen, but I
almost exclusively, anytime I

829
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,880
have time that I'm going to
consume media, I'm listening to

830
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,120
probably a Joe Rogan podcast and
those are generally 3 hours.

831
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,160
So yes, people will.
There's no way.

832
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,200
People will if it's an
interesting conversation.

833
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,480
I am very interested in this
conversation so.

834
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:07,600
Well, then I would say the last
kind of we've touched on it a

835
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:12,240
little bit, but the biggest
problem that we have in the real

836
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:20,360
and fresh and cooked, there is
no standardized policies and

837
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,920
protocols.
There's the Food Safety Act

838
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,600
which says certain things.
But once again, I come back to

839
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,520
if Company A has discovered
something, they're not going to

840
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,640
share with Company B.
In fact, they're going to

841
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,280
trigger out how to migrate and
so that they don't have to share

842
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,240
with anybody if they could.
That's where.

843
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:50,240
And now, correct me if I'm
wrong, but if as long as I don't

844
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,920
put that ASCO sticker on my
food, if I start buying goat's

845
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,040
milk, I register with the state
chemist here in Indiana, I can

846
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:04,280
sell that as a pet food, A pet
food supplement, because it

847
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,760
wouldn't be a complete
imbalance.

848
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,480
The USDAFDA and any governing
bodies besides the state chemist

849
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,320
would have no idea that I'm
making a pet food.

850
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,880
If you never leave Indiana, what
you have just said is correct.

851
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,320
And there are, there are a bunch
of small companies and that's

852
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,560
what they do.
And if I leave Indiana, what

853
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,640
triggers that though, is that
voluntarily if I start selling

854
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,440
it on the Internet?
Now you're talking apples and

855
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,600
oranges.
Are you trekking it over to

856
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,120
Illinois?
Are you selling on the Internet?

857
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,560
2 Totally different than
Internet.

858
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,560
Yeah, Internet's a Gray area,
and it depends on the state.

859
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,640
There are some states that are
actively looking for

860
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:57,400
manufacturers who are selling
and some of the state, some of

861
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,680
the state regulators are
actually ordering that online

862
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:07,560
pet food to prove that it's
being sold across state lines to

863
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:12,320
then tell the manufacturer you
need to register in this state.

864
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,560
So that's that.
Yeah, there are, Savvy.

865
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,040
So they have money to have
people slufing the Internet.

866
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:28,200
You know what it it's, it's a
couple of states who have a pet

867
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,400
peeve, and it depends on who's
in charge of the office.

868
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,240
So, for example, bird flu,
Oregon and Washington have a

869
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:40,760
pickle up there.
You know what about bird flu

870
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,960
where most of the other states
are like OK, is it on your food

871
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,000
safety plan?
OK, Like California was like OK,

872
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,040
but it came from California.
But anyway, Washington and

873
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,680
Oregon had a pickle up their
hiney about it.

874
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,640
So certain states have a pickle
up their rear end about online

875
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:03,240
sales in the way that the laws
have now been written in the

876
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,480
last two years of of the AFCO,
the model bill, because it's an

877
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:16,480
example, it isn't national law.
That website is part of a label.

878
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,920
So if you sell your food online,
what it says on your website is

879
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,160
part of your label.
And there are a couple of states

880
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:30,440
that will read everything.
Some states will come looking

881
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,880
for you, many don't have the
manpower to do it.

882
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,040
And so it's who's in charge of
the office and who who has pet

883
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:44,640
peeve so.
A lot of times it's snitches

884
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,000
like myself.
It is snitches.

885
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:52,000
Yeah, I got stop sell long time
ago by the state of Indiana for

886
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,400
selling a hemp based pet food.
Grandma Lucy's.

887
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,320
It was great, great pet food.
They stopped.

888
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,560
Trouble for that?
Well, when the state of Indiana

889
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:08,000
stop selling me and pulled it
off my shelves because they knew

890
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,800
I would sell it underneath the
counter like I was on Life

891
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Extension, it was sitting in
Chuy's distribution center right

892
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,280
down the street from me.
And I knew that because I had a

893
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:24,000
friend at the distributor and I
went back to the state chemist

894
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,440
and I said, this is how much of
Grandma Lucy's hemp seed

895
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,640
products that Chewie is
receiving here in Indiana.

896
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,960
Why aren't you stopping them?
And they said we can't tell

897
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,880
where they're selling it, so
they could be selling it to

898
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,560
Illinois, which would be just
fine.

899
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:43,800
And.
Oh, it wasn't.

900
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,680
I did not like that.
Because because the FDA said

901
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,480
hemp in food, pet food is
illegal.

902
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,280
No no, no, it doesn't matter
what state you're in.

903
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,120
I've heard of several people
telling on Grandma Lucy's.

904
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,440
So that was a cop out on Indiana
part.

905
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,400
Well, I was trying to get Chewy
in trouble.

906
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,560
I lived in trying to get Carmel
Lucy in trouble.

907
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:12,760
Yeah, so isn't that interesting?
Because Indiana has a reputation

908
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:18,840
for being nitpicky would be a
generous kind term in their

909
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:24,040
review of labels.
And yet they allowed commerce.

910
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,760
Because the field inspector did
not want to have to go through

911
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,040
the Chewy distribution center
right now.

912
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,760
Again, I will qualify that this
was years ago and they've

913
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,520
changed the food inspector
that's out in the field.

914
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,920
But back then, he wasn't
interested in walking that that

915
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:47,000
distribution center, no.
But the label people in the

916
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,360
offense.
He won because he got food off

917
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,480
your shelf.
Boom.

918
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,960
I can take the rest of the month
off, right?

919
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,920
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.

920
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,360
Low hanging fruit.
Exactly.

921
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,560
But Lucy's doesn't make that
anymore, do they?

922
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,880
So at the end of the day, at the
end of the day, consumers have

923
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,880
to be have to take on the
responsibility of educating

924
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,280
themselves.
Regardless of pet food or

925
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:20,560
people's food, pick a neck.
So what I'm curious from both of

926
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:25,080
you, from your different
perspectives, when a consumer is

927
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,080
going to choose a pet food, What
should they be looking for?

928
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:34,680
When we are talking specifically
about pet food safety, I would

929
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,040
tell them to call the
manufacturer and ask what are

930
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,760
their protocols when it comes.
Use some specifics.

931
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,000
Ask them about bird flu.
Ask them about test and hold.

932
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,480
If they're not doing test and
hold, what are they doing?

933
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,640
What is their kill step?
If they don't like providing

934
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,160
that information, move on to the
next manufacturer that will tell

935
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:59,760
you that that's and that's where
a lot of this, when I reached

936
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,920
out to you, Jessica, was because
I've been doing a lot of that

937
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:08,000
for people that I'm consulting
with and I'm getting told, yeah,

938
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,040
I'll tell you, but you can't
tell anybody or we're not

939
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,400
telling you.
It's a big secret.

940
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,080
And I hate that.
And I don't think it's doing our

941
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,120
industry well.
And I think a lot of us,

942
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:24,840
especially in the real food
communities are making

943
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,320
assumptions about some
manufacturers that you should

944
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,240
not be making assumptions about
that.

945
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,040
That's other before I turn it
over to Doctor Cathy on that.

946
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,120
The other thing I would tell you
is audit because as we've said,

947
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,000
people are not rotating their
manufacturers well enough.

948
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:45,640
If you think BC's pet food is
doing great for your dog, you've

949
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,720
already asked all the questions
of me when you started feeding

950
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,320
it a year ago.
You should be calling me again

951
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,760
in a year because I might have
changed.

952
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,600
I may not believe in test and
hold anymore.

953
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,240
So you got to audit your
manufacturer as well if you want

954
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,440
the absolute best for your pets.
I think I agree with everything

955
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,760
you said.
I agree all the manufacturers.

956
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,880
I am going to have to bookmark
this because you've agreed with

957
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,360
me multiple times and I've
stopped you multiple times and

958
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,520
once.
I've never done that twice.

959
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,800
See twice.
OK, I'll take it.

960
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,360
I'll take it as a land.
OK, that's awesome.

961
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:27,640
No, I agree completely.
All right, let's talk politics.

962
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,960
Not really politics.
Now, you mentioned way back at

963
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,320
the beginning that maybe Afco's
going away.

964
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,160
Oh boy, there's a lot changing.
So what, a year, year and a half

965
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:44,040
ago, the per act PURR was
proposed by Pet Food Institute.

966
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,200
And basically what they said was
let's move it all to the FDA.

967
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,560
But now the new government is
like, whoa now, hold on.

968
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,200
We don't want to spend the
money.

969
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,160
It's all going back to the state
again.

970
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:01,960
So it's been fascinating
watching the state regulators.

971
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,480
A year ago, I think it was AFCO,
in August, it was it.

972
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,800
Were you at that one, Jessica?
Was that the one when Stan

973
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,320
cried?
Yeah.

974
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,960
OK, Stan Cook from Kansas, he's
now retired.

975
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:22,400
Because if the PER act was
passed, all the state regulators

976
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:27,240
in the room, all 500 up, well
200 of them because the rest is

977
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,560
industry could potentially have
been out of a job and it was all

978
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:35,440
going to the FDA.
And so for about two months we

979
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,640
heard, well, I don't know, we
don't know how things are going

980
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:44,120
to go because the FDA published
the end the whole chapter 6 out

981
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,320
of the AFCO official publication
is like, oh, it's been public.

982
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,480
They're not going to make any
money anymore.

983
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,400
Now all of a sudden Afco's back
in busy and they're doing stuff

984
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,240
and they're not the least bit
worried about their jobs again

985
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,160
because the whole deregulation.
And it's fascinating to watch

986
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,000
the behavior of the state
regulators because a year ago

987
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,880
they were shaking in their
shoes, afraid that they weren't

988
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,640
having a job.
And now I think they think they

989
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:18,200
have job security.
So we got a lot of changes and

990
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:22,960
it's going to be an interesting
future to see how things change.

991
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,640
I think all of us can probably
agree, well, yeah, easy.

992
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:28,680
We all agree we want pet food to
be safe.

993
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,400
We probably have different
definitions of what safety looks

994
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:40,400
like and or how much need for
regulatory intervention there

995
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,400
is.
But I agree with UBC, the

996
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,040
manufacturers should be
transparent.

997
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,960
They should say this is what we
do.

998
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,800
Here's how we keep your pet
safe.

999
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,360
And you know what?
If you have an immune suppressed

1000
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,520
animal, don't feed straight up
raw.

1001
01:04:55,680 --> 01:05:00,600
Or if you do understand you have
an immune suppressed animal and

1002
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,160
you're feeding straight up raw,
accept the responsibility.

1003
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,280
If I go get sushi and I go
order, is it the puffer fish

1004
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,680
that kills?
Yeah, yeah.

1005
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,720
If I order puffer fish, I walked
in the door and I read the sign

1006
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,720
at the front door, it's my own
choice.

1007
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,320
I'm not going to sue the
restaurant if I get sick.

1008
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,560
If I die, then you know my
family is not going to sue

1009
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,000
because I walked in and I agreed
based on the sign.

1010
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:35,800
Every pet food, cooked, canned,
should all have a safety warning

1011
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,400
on it.
Maybe all food should have a

1012
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,760
safety warning on it.
Xylitol.

1013
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:46,560
I have a client years ago, years
ago was making sweets for church

1014
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,680
and decided oh they get too much
sugar I'm going to use xylitol.

1015
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,880
The Wiener dog ate it.
He died.

1016
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:58,280
She was so upset, she called the
xylitol company and said, why

1017
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,920
isn't there a warning?
And what was their their caveat?

1018
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,600
They're out.
Dogs aren't our intended

1019
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,280
consumer.
OK.

1020
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,880
And so then the little man died.
How do you compare that with the

1021
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:15,120
antifreeze companies?
The antifreeze companies are now

1022
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,840
some of them are putting on
their packaging.

1023
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,360
Dogs and cats may die if they
drink this.

1024
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:22,360
Don't leave it laying around on
the ground.

1025
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,480
So you've got to.
I think it's on there.

1026
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,960
Yeah, you've got a company who's
willing to accept it and or some

1027
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:35,000
states have legislated that the
antifreeze has to say that

1028
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:40,320
because enough pet parents said
enough, it's got to say it got

1029
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,440
to protect the animals.
When we were doing pet food

1030
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,720
labeling, modernization,
preparation, it took ten years

1031
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,360
in AFCO to come up with new pet
food labels like we were

1032
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:58,120
supposed to do 17 years ago.
One of the discussions was

1033
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:03,080
safety, safety statements and
symbols to put on pet food.

1034
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,760
And this was before all of us
got kicked off.

1035
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,240
And the the people on the call
were like, well, we think raw

1036
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,400
pet food needs to have safety
warnings.

1037
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,880
And I'm like, whoa, now Whole
Food needs safety warning.

1038
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,480
And I got out my statistics and
I said kibble has made more

1039
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:24,800
people sick and had one member
from the FDA who agreed with me.

1040
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,440
Then there was that lawsuit and
then I got kicked off and I'm

1041
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,520
back now.
But so then it made it through

1042
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:38,200
and nobody the the result was
nobody's required to put those

1043
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:44,240
safety statements on their food.
They are available if people or

1044
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,120
manufacturers wish wish to use
it.

1045
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,880
Most raw pet food manufacturers
actually say this is raw.

1046
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,440
It may contain harmful bacteria.
Don't eat it.

1047
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:58,480
It's for your dog, it's for your
cat.

1048
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,600
Most of them do.
They don't all they should have

1049
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,240
the sushi warning like the sushi
restaurants they should.

1050
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,720
Remember that labeling one of
the symbols discussed was the

1051
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,680
biohazard.
We're going to put the biohazard

1052
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,920
symbol on raw pet food.
Yeah.

1053
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:19,880
But yeah, luckily that did not
pass.

1054
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,200
Luckily it didn't pass.
They were just common sense

1055
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,040
things like keep refrigerated,
throw out in doubt, if in doubt,

1056
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:31,439
that sort of thing.
But yeah, yeah, yes, because you

1057
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,920
got to continue participating
after the rest of us got kicked

1058
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,439
off for a while because you.
No, I got banned too.

1059
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,240
Did you get?
You did get banned also.

1060
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,479
Yeah, I, yeah, I, I was a
consumer advocate on the board

1061
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,840
and got banned and never came
back.

1062
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,120
And I fought it.
I begged and pleaded with them

1063
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,160
and they were not interested in
me coming back at the time.

1064
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,880
You know, it's funny because
that came from the executive

1065
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:07,479
director at that time.
Who I did not like, but once

1066
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,720
again, I mean, that's the
biggest you want to talk about

1067
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,080
the biggest weak link when it
comes to consumers.

1068
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,800
What you just were talking
about, Jessica, is you notice

1069
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:21,279
neither one of us said look for
the AFCO statement because we

1070
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,560
don't care about the AFCO
statement because AFCO is really

1071
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:30,640
nothing.
AFCO is a way for state

1072
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,479
employees to go on a little
brief vacation and get paid for

1073
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,200
it has nothing to do with pet
food safety.

1074
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,680
Now once again, this is the
opinions of BC and not

1075
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,040
necessarily of the others on
this podcast, right?

1076
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:46,399
But that's the whole purpose of
AFCO.

1077
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:51,120
It it has very little to do with
real pet food safety.

1078
01:09:52,359 --> 01:10:01,640
Co originated with livestock
feed 120 years ago.

1079
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:06,000
Food didn't exist when AFCO was
created.

1080
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,960
AFCO was created so that the
states could figure out how they

1081
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:16,960
were going to regulate livestock
feed as it went across state

1082
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,680
borders.
And then, I don't know, 70s all

1083
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,800
of a sudden they went food
exists.

1084
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:31,000
And then around 2000 they went
raw pet food exists and raw milk

1085
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:33,680
for pets.
Yeah, agreed.

1086
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,920
AFCO complete balanced,
whatever.

1087
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:40,640
It means your cable has enough
nutrients to maintain life.

1088
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:46,520
Yeah, keep in mind, I know we're
winding down here, but my last

1089
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,480
little story I want to say about
AFCO because I was there.

1090
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:58,680
I was there the moment that
Doctor Kathy was booed, Booed by

1091
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:04,360
the state regulators for just
proposing that maybe plastic

1092
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,040
isn't the best thing to feed the
cows.

1093
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,560
She was booed and it wasn't
audience members.

1094
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,400
I mean, it was audience members
too.

1095
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,960
It was it.
Was this regulator sitting at

1096
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,280
the board?
And I was there for that moment,

1097
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,640
and I was also there when they
called our good friend Roxana, a

1098
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:25,680
hippie, for some of her
thoughts.

1099
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,520
Vegetarian hippie.
Yes, yes, but.

1100
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,000
Absolutely.
That's where I come from when I

1101
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,920
say Asco's not doing anything
really good for our pet.

1102
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,640
I can't.
I mean, that's such, part of me

1103
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:46,400
wants to get angry and say that
it's intentional, but I don't.

1104
01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:48,720
I mean, in these cases, I don't
think it is.

1105
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,200
I think it's short sightedness.
Ignorance.

1106
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:52,680
For Yeah I.
Mean.

1107
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:59,560
The fact that we're finding a
credit card size worth of

1108
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:05,640
plastic in the human brain at
this point when when we die is

1109
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,440
astounding.
And to think that we can feed it

1110
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,880
to the animals that we are then
eating from and it's not going

1111
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,440
to affect us in the long term
like that.

1112
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:21,440
I I can only admit it sounds
very short sighted on on their.

1113
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,360
They're keeping it out of the
landfill.

1114
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:30,240
They are very proud of reducing
waste to the landfill by

1115
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:34,240
upcycling the waste and and
gosh, Can you imagine if it's a

1116
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,560
credit card in US, how big is it
in our pets since they're

1117
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,880
getting the waste from our food?
I can't imagine.

1118
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,640
I really can't.
Right.

1119
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,080
It's so sad.
It's so sad to me.

1120
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,240
Yeah, there's, there's the would
be my big safety thing.

1121
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,800
It's the recycled waste, which
is why I represent fresh pet

1122
01:12:55,800 --> 01:13:01,080
food manufacturers.
And that's why it's been 8-9

1123
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,600
years, You know, when I
relinquished my veterinary

1124
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,040
license and started the trade
association.

1125
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:13,320
It's because it's critical to me
that if people want it, they can

1126
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,880
find fresh food for their pets.
And nobody represents these

1127
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,520
manufacturers at EFCO until I
came along and formed the trade

1128
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,080
association and I'm now on the
committees.

1129
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,320
And even though we all got
kicked off the individual

1130
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:32,320
chairs, I talked to each one
every meeting until we got

1131
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:37,280
formally welcomed back in.
I was always welcomed to

1132
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:40,360
represent fresh food.
And I, I asked each one

1133
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,720
permission.
Can I still sit at the table?

1134
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,440
And they're like, sure, Kathy,
come on.

1135
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:47,440
And I'm like, thank you.
I can still represent food even

1136
01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:50,720
though that executive director
was closed minded.

1137
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:56,200
Executive director, I think is
pretty good, pretty fair, pretty

1138
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,160
good.
Well, and that's what like I

1139
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,680
know when we come into a
discussion on pet food safety,

1140
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,440
that I think is what most people
are thinking of salmonella,

1141
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:08,080
listeria, E coli, the, you know,
pathogenic bacterias.

1142
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:15,360
But I do think of pet food
safety as quality of food than

1143
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,520
not feed right like that.
That is something that I think

1144
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:24,200
is more important to our animals
than Salmonella U Colon.

1145
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,840
To find food and feed to mean
the same thing.

1146
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,480
And that's very frustrating.
And I would agree that that

1147
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:34,280
might be safety.
And how about weren't you there

1148
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:36,480
Jessica, for the copper
discussions?

1149
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:41,400
I no, I was the last year was
the only one I I went to and

1150
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:43,840
they they.
Were finishing the copper.

1151
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,680
Just yeah, they said no, we're
not going to.

1152
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:48,560
They just said no, we're not
going to settle.

1153
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:50,240
In the end of.
Discussion.

1154
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,200
And that was all they said.
You know, because of because of

1155
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:57,680
implications of copper storage
disease in dogs could

1156
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:02,640
potentially be exacerbated by
high copper in the pet food.

1157
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:07,320
And there are lots of biological
factors that go into that.

1158
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,640
Some dogs are going to have
problems and some aren't.

1159
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,720
And right, so you're right, we
could go on.

1160
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:15,840
It is good.
Scheduled 3 hours.

1161
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,640
Kidding, but that's a safety
issue also.

1162
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:24,000
It is.
In making a a maximum limit for

1163
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,880
copper in a middle of the road
for copper.

1164
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:30,400
So it's voluntary.
If a company wants to say have

1165
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:34,640
restricted copper, they can or
limited or whatever the word is.

1166
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,360
It just wasn't written into the
model built.

1167
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,840
But a manufacturer can do that
so that if they're trying to

1168
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,920
help, you know, and who would do
that?

1169
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:48,840
A manufacturer who had a dog
with copper storage disease or

1170
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,040
with liver disease or failure
and it was linked to copper and

1171
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:55,560
that's who would do it.
And there are a few

1172
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,320
manufacturers who do have
limited copper foods.

1173
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,520
You have to call them.
They don't put it on their label

1174
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,800
because the regulators are all
doesn't say that.

1175
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,560
You can say that, but it doesn't
say that you can't say it.

1176
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:14,760
And who wants to submit your
label to Indiana 75 times and

1177
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:18,120
five other states?
It's not just Indiana, but there

1178
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:23,160
are under 10 that are pickier
than others.

1179
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,360
Kentucky.
Go ahead.

1180
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,680
She's not as much anymore.
Oh well, that's good.

1181
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,400
Kentucky used to be one of the
worst.

1182
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:35,440
She used to be.
I don't know what changed

1183
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:37,160
overall.
She spent some time as the

1184
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,200
director or the.
Maybe so overall.

1185
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:42,440
Well, she's mellowed.
I see her smile.

1186
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:47,800
Well, I think I think we came
into this at least BC thought

1187
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:52,000
that there was going to be like
some opposition here.

1188
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:55,200
But it sounds like you 2 pretty
much are on the same page I.

1189
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,440
Appreciate that.
Just get that perspective.

1190
01:16:57,440 --> 01:17:02,080
We're close enough and I have
some great new notes like

1191
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:05,160
Calvin, yes and BC.
You made some beautiful points

1192
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,760
and they absolutely are things
that the manufacturers need to

1193
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,880
address.
Transparency is key.

1194
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,880
Melamine would not have happened
if transparency were there.

1195
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:21,720
Yep, and if all rent real and
fresh pet food manufacturers

1196
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,200
were a member of your
association, we wouldn't even be

1197
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,120
having this conversation only.
Work one job and it would.

1198
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,320
So I mean happening.
And you're not a member.

1199
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:34,000
Contact me.
Yeah, reach out or ask the guys.

1200
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,720
They'll tell you how to find me.
I'm telling you, the last last

1201
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,880
year I I'm probably gonna do it
again this year.

1202
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,080
Last year when I was walking
around super zoo, every pet food

1203
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,920
manufacturer I talked to, I was
like, you're you're first of

1204
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,080
all, I said, why are you not,
why do you not have, why are you

1205
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,320
not at AFCO meetings?
And then I said, are you part of

1206
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,200
next Gen.
I did with like everybody I

1207
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,080
talked and they all said I never
heard of it, right.

1208
01:17:57,440 --> 01:17:59,480
You probably found three that
were members.

1209
01:17:59,960 --> 01:18:01,560
I had, I found a couple that
were members.

1210
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:02,600
Yeah.
And.

1211
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,920
And everybody was just like
those.

1212
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,600
Those meetings are so boring.
I'm like, I realize that this is

1213
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,080
literally what you do.
They are pure torture.

1214
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:16,440
You guys have been there.
It's in Omaha in October.

1215
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:18,960
I mean in.
August, yeah.

1216
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,840
Yeah, but there's some good
manufacturing facilities in the

1217
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,440
mall.
Well then I expect you to show

1218
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:28,480
up.
Might have to do some tours.

1219
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,040
I'd have to.
Do some tours.

1220
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,760
Do some Taylor.
Yes.

1221
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:39,800
So I'm not at all paid for any
of this, but I do go around

1222
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,080
talking to manufacturers about
even when I interview them, I'm

1223
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,680
like on the podcast, we get off
the podcast and I'm like, are

1224
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,600
you with next Gen.
Thank you.

1225
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:50,640
Thank you.
Perfect.

1226
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,080
Have people start thinking about
it and we might be the rabble

1227
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:58,400
rousers because I was told that
all I did was laugh.

1228
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:02,640
I'm like, you're right, we are.
That's how we change the system.

1229
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,600
And the idea that we're looking
for with change with next Gen.

1230
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:12,880
is making it better.
It's right there on our front

1231
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,960
page.
We're talking transparency.

1232
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,560
We're not trying to have
secrets.

1233
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:20,400
I'm shocked BC that there are
fresh pet food manufacturers who

1234
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:25,320
are keeping that stuff a secret.
I am very disappointed and that.

1235
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,160
There are a lot.
Me too.

1236
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:29,640
I am too.
Yeah.

1237
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,560
Well, I think I certainly
enjoyed this conversation is

1238
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:38,480
helping me to formulate better
questions for pet food

1239
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:40,440
manufacturers that I have on the
show as well.

1240
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,080
So I appreciate the two of you
and for coming and talking and

1241
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,680
having this discussion and
having it in front of a large

1242
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:49,960
audience.
Absolutely.

1243
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:53,120
You 2 are awesome.
I appreciate you both.

1244
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:57,200
I of course will have both of
your profiles, LinkedIn, the

1245
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,480
show notes check out and I.
And just because we're here,

1246
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,840
Doctor Kathy does do
consultation still, right?

1247
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,240
Yeah, I, I have, I have two
hats.

1248
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:10,920
One is the trade association and
the other is healthy

1249
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:15,760
possibilities with a paw.
And I don't care what you call

1250
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,680
me for, if you want help and
guidance, it always starts with

1251
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,720
fresh food, which is why I run
the trade association because

1252
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:24,840
that fresh food needs to be
available.

1253
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:29,240
You can't get good health
without quality food.

1254
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,080
Oh wait, it's right there.
You're absolutely right and BC's

1255
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,680
wife Kat has the Ninja groomer,
which obviously if you're in

1256
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,200
Indiana that's something you can
check out, but if you are not in

1257
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,680
Indiana you can also check out
her socials because that is so

1258
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:44,480
fun.
Awesome.

1259
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,680
Post Follow the Ninja Groomer.
Awesome post.

1260
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,840
Yes, All right, you guys, thank
you so much for being here.

1261
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,640
I think this was an excellent,
excellent chat and I hope that

1262
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,680
it helps people make better
decisions about pet food as

1263
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:58,960
well.
So with that, I'm going to go

1264
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:02,200
ahead and end for this week.
You guys have a great rest of

1265
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:03,640
your day.
Give your pets some extra love

1266
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,360
from myself, Kathy and BC this
week.

1267
01:21:06,440 --> 01:21:07,240
Talk to you next week.